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360 CS Dyno Run Results

Discussion in '360/430' started by thomas_b, Dec 20, 2003.

  1. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    2004 360 Challenge-Stradale (US Version)
    Assembly Number: 50457
    Miles: 1157 miles
    Curb Weight: 3000lb (owner’s manual) / 3096lb (measured)
    HP (flywheel): 409 hp / 8500 rpm (owner’s manual)
    Torque (flywheel): 275 lb. ft. / 4750 rpm (owner’s manual)

    Dyno: Mustang Dyne (DynoAuthority http://www.dynoauthority.com/ )
    Measurement Standard: SAE (J1349)
    Max. HP (rear wheels): 320.4 HP @ 8500 RPM
    Max. Torque (rear wheel): 233.2 Ft-lbs @ 5750 RPM
    Parasitic Torque: 32 ft-lbs (measured through coast-down run)
    Coast-down Loss: 14%

    Flywheel HP “Discussion”:
    409HP would mean a 21% driveline loss (not reasonable ~15% is standard)
    391HP with 18% driveline loss (estimate by operator based on coast-down loss)

    Possible reasons we don’t see claimed HP (besides different standards used):
    - engine is relative new and still tight
    - air box RAM effect is not present (may account for 5-10HP)
    - fuel was US 92 octane

    I unfortunately do not have the A/F Ratio numbers in digital format since the data logging system did not work. However from watching the numbers it was very visible that the engine did lean out strongly above 7400rpm with the resulting loss in power – there is still potential at the high end.

    I have published the videos of two runs here: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3767 . If you watch carefully you actually see Tim getting frustrated that the car would not “go” at the top end in the first video and try to “nudge” it in the second.
     
  2. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    I thought the Stradale was rated at 425 hp??

    Gary
     
  3. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    yes - all the marketing stuff says 425HP

    my US owner manual lists: Max. power (97/21/CE) 409 hp

    it would be intersting to see what the EU owner's manual says (wazza?)
     
  4. GaryReed

    GaryReed F1 Rookie

    Feb 9, 2002
    3,053
    Seattle
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    Gary
    The numbers seem low.... maybe because the engine doesn't have very many miles on it.

    At one of our F- Club Dyno Day events, a 2001 360 F1 (all stock) recorded 323 horsepower at the tires.
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,384
    The twilight zone
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    The Butcher
    That is interesting..., so 371 using a 16% (correction which I think is the standard for mid-engine drive line, but maybe 18%) and is in perfect agreement with the performance results in the CS-GT40-GT3 comparision. I would love to see what happens with 93 or 94 octane...
     
  6. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,333
    It looks and sounds to me that the blanket over the left side of the engine bay may have been interfering with the air into one side of the engine.
     
  7. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
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    Russ Turner
    Very interesting.
    Using a 320 @17% loss (That's what I was taught) puts power at 385: 107 hp/liter
    For 409 hp as listed in the manual: 113.6 hp/liter
    Marketing: 425 shows 118 hp/liter.

    Pretty amazing on pump gas.

    The fuel/air graph will really tell the story. If it did lean out, do you remember to what numbers? 13.3 or so? Would be intersting to find if it was going lean and the ECU required a tweak. You know, a small vacuum leak only happening at high rpm would do that as well.

    This is great data that is instructive for all of us.
    Good luck!
    rt
     
  8. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    good catch - we taped it
     
  9. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
  10. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    14.45 idle - going down to 12+

    we did not bother to use the connection for a probe in front of the cat since the A/F logging system did not work - we rather sampled in the exaust tip - next time
     
  11. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,333
    Drive line loss; whats in a number.

    For muscle cars with live rear axles the general number is in the 15% range.

    For front engined sports cars with independent rear suspensions the number is in the 17% range.

    For cars without a direct drive gear in the transmission and independent rear suspension the number should be in the 18% range.

    Carw with automatic transmissions have even larger losses starting at 20% and increasing to 22% with independent rear suspensions.

    Why?

    Everybody known that the transmission consumes power as power goes through the gears. We can tell because the oil gets hot.

    Camaros, Mustangs, Vipers all have a transmision that is a 1:1 gear ratio between input shaft and output shaft. The transmissions in these cars arre arranged so that when using the 1:1 gearing, the input shaft is coupled to the output shaft without using a pair of gears. Because non selected gears are turned by the input shaft, the transmission consumes around 5% of the energy passing through it even with the 1:1 gearing selected.

    The differential consumes energy figure around 5% maybe a little more.
    The tires on the rolling wheel consuem even more energy, figure around 5% here again.

    Independent rear suspensions also consume energy (CV joints, rear bearing hub carrier). Figure 2% here.

    The F360 does not have a direct drive passage through the transmission, so that there is gearing loss that the american sports cars do not have. This is the cost of a transmission hanging low enough to benefit the center of gravity. Figure 2%-3% here.

    This all leads to a rather simple way of determing how much power is goind to be consumed by the driveline.
     
  12. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Owner Miami 2018

    Dec 1, 2000
    49,016
    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    Hmm, does Ferrari have Mazdaitis? I realize 80% of companies exaggerate numbers either intentionally or not as their test car is blueprinted and set up perfect. However, I find this news a little disheartening. I would rather Ferrari be honest, I think they should be putting 365 HP on the 360's and 375-385 on the CS literature. Unless of course all of these tests are a bad fluke. :(
     
  13. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
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    Russ Turner
    You know, I may be wrong here, but if your F/A is going to 12+ that is not too lean. Quite the oppossite actually as it is a bit rich which may be robbing you of the power. I was taught that max power was in the mid 13s. Someone may pitch in that they are adding a bit of richness up way high for a reason (combustion temp?).
    Your idle is pretty much stoich as you would expect.
    Would like to hear from some of the FChat experts on this.

    Great discussion
    best
    rt
     
  14. G-force

    G-force F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2002
    3,053
    so california
    Full Name:
    wayne skiles
    Probably get flamed but............VERY DISAPPOINTING
    at best. I have one ordered so it's not like I don't want one.
    Compared to other cars they are lucky it is carrying a"Ferrari"
    badge or they couldn't compete!
     
  15. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    you say F/A for a reason? - AFR (air/fuel ratio) richer = lower numbers - high power -> lower AFR numbers - usually around 12.5 or below - we expected (hoped for) 11s

    however I am not the expert in that field - it sucks that I could not loog that data :-(
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,384
    The twilight zone
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    The Butcher
    A/F of 13.2 in about where max power is, but you don't loose much going down to mid 12s, a couple % maybe. When I dyno'd mine a couple years ago, it was 304@13.2, and 295@12.5 without messing with timing. Sometimes more fuel lets you run more timing, but I didn't get a chance to mess with it on mine. On my race bike advancing the timing 2 degree costs me 5% on hp, retarding it 2% costs 10%. If the knock sensor is pulling the timing back for the 92 octane, that would easily explain the low(er than quoted) numbers. I'm sure Ferrari tuned the 360 as high as they thought they should originally....then they added compression to the CS. It would not surprise me if it the knock sensor is always pulling the timing back on all pump gas. It would be great to see dyno numbers on race gas....I just don't want to believe they are lying.....
     
  17. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    can't say I am happy but I was prepared by the CS-GT40-GT3 comparision

    the car impressed me on the dyno - it behaved much better than the 996 TT - engine temperature was rock steady over multiple runs

    the fustrating part was that it would go like a rocket up to ~ 7.4K rpm at which point it would start to level out

    overall it is still a very refined car and I believe it will do great on track
     
  18. allanlambo

    allanlambo F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2002
    4,363
    Maui
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    Allan
    I have to agree, great car, what the 360 should have been from the beginning, but still disappointing. What do they weigh? 3000pds? Looks like the power to weight ratio is still better in a Corvette Z06.

    Id also like to see how a modded 355 like mine, with headers,exhaust,cat-bypass and airboxes would compare. From what ive heard, they make about 335 rwhp with these mods.
     
  19. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    This sounds like a characteristic of an engine not yet fully broken in.

    Gary
     
  20. yimn

    yimn Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
    155
    Hong Kong
    Full Name:
    Nick Yim
    jsut curious about the octane level in the US. Here in HK, the lowest octane fuel you can get is 98, which is stated as the required octane level in my owner's manual. I think the octane level is a critical factor in HP output as I tried octane 97 in CHina and it did have significant impact on the way the car performs. Just my 2cent.
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Yimn,
    In the US octane is rate differently than in many other countries. Your 98 is probably our 91 or 92. I don't think any car sold in the US specs over 91 octane as required since that is the highest available in some areas. Some may want more octane though, and I suspect the CS is one of them.
     
  22. spyderman

    spyderman Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,436
    Toronto - Canada
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    Spyderman
    Thomas:

    Thank you for posting the numbers on the Stradale! Very informative!

    I am also disappointed with the numbers the Stradale is getting at the wheels:(

    What do you mean that the at 7400 rpm the car would level out? It should just climb right to the red line...do you think there is a problem with the engine management on your car? When you are runing through the gears on the road do you find any hesitation at the 7400 rpm level?

    FYI: I had a 1995 355 with tubi's and no cats and it was dynoed on a Dynojet Model 248C. I had 323.6 HP and 234 lb/ft at the wheels. It is posted on a web site at the shop that I did it at a couple of years ago. I will look to see if I can find the web site and post the info.
     
  23. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    77,471
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Peter
    It's very odd that that car levels off at 7400rpm. there's obviously something wrong....it should be pulling more and more like all the other Ferraris traditionally have.

    In my experience you can't compare figures between chassis dynos. They usually have different calibrations. They are good for comparing changes on your own car, but that's about it.
     
  24. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

    Apr 15, 2001
    1,811
    FL, OR
    Whats going on here? Didn't the Marketing info claim 425shp and 2822lbs? The owners manual now says 409shp and 3000 lbs! A single sample test result gives <<409shp and 3096Lbs?????

    Car and Driver quoted the standard 360 challange at 410shp and 2900lbs and the 360 Modena at 395shp and 3091lbs.

    Need more samples or a truth machine from FNA.
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,384
    The twilight zone
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    The Butcher
    I'm looking at the graph, but I don't see any hint of leveling off at 7400. There are 2 runs shown, the solid line looks pretty good except for the bumps at about 5900 and 6300, I'd like to know what that is all about. I've never seen that before, but I suspect the knock sensor is moving the timing around. A data log from the ECU would be nice to have. Those bumps show about 15-20 hp jump when they occur and that is about what the car is missing.

    The curve with the dotted line looks just awful compared to the solid. It doesn't have any bumps, but does have a big flat spot centered around 6900 and is way low below 4300. So, what changed between the runs??? Which run was done first??
     

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