360 F1 Tranny Questions and Further Explanations (please) | FerrariChat
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360 F1 Tranny Questions and Further Explanations (please)

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Doody, Oct 26, 2004.

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  1. Doody

    Doody F1 Veteran

    Nov 16, 2001
    6,099
    MA USA
    Full Name:
    Mr. Doody
    #1 Doody, Oct 26, 2004
    over the last long while, rifledriver has posted some very interesting data points about the 360 F1 system - thanks dude for all that info. i had some additional questions that i did not see posted in those threads though, hence this new thread.

    my CS is my first F1 car. Dan360 was able to give me some useful education (thank you!) as to some of the basics of which i was unaware and he pointed me to rifledriver's data. but i still have questions :).

    what exactly defines "uphill"? why is uphill so much worse than flat? obviously there's more force required (i understand the physics), but if i'm backing up a 5% incline at 2MPH or backing up on a flat surface at 20MPH that might be equivalent forces on the clutch - why is uphill specifically bad?

    does anybody know WHY it was designed this way? i mean, it's certainly rare, but i can remember a few occasions where i've had to back down a long crowded driveway or the like - a few hundred feet. what's the engineering/design goal that this behavior meets?

    is there some way to tell when the clutch is done slipping in first? can you feel something? or hear something? i've noticed that when you let the computer downshift, it doesn't go into first until it absolutely positively has to. should we upshift the same way (ie: get the hell out of first as soon as humanly possible?)?

    so just to be clear, if my old 6-speed habit of going to neutral when approaching a stop is an impossible habit to break, there's nothing per se wrong with doing that, correct? that is, there's no material downside as compared to downshifting to (or letting the computer downshift to) first, correct? i always was taught that it's long-term cheaper to brake with your brakes than brake with your tranny.


    specific to the CS, i'm curious to know how race mode -vs- non race mode shifts wear the tranny differenty, if at all. is there any data on this? i prefer the race mode shifts (don't we all, i presume), but if it's going to halve the life of my clutch, i can prefer them less often ;)

    in around-town driving, do most folks downshift manually or do most folks let the computer downshift for them?

    tia,
    doody
     
  2. PatrickShim

    PatrickShim Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2004
    1,755
    Southern California
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    Patrick Shim
    #2 PatrickShim, Oct 26, 2004
    Congratulations with your new 360CS. They are amazing cars.
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,093
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #3 Rifledriver, Oct 26, 2004
    I had a nice reply all typed out when the site went down, oh well.
    Congrats on the new car.

    Reverse, as I have seen said here avoid it at all costs. Ferrari when they developed that system was very gun shy of liabilities due no doubt to a great degree to American courts. The many safety features of the F1 system (trans goes to N when door or hood opened, same when foot off brake for a period of time etc) are for that reason. As they told us they were worried that in backing up and a less than great driver got into the throttle too hard and the clutch locked up hard loss of control could result. I know.. sounds stupid, but thats the story. You are correct that backing up a hill and backing quickly on flat can be the same energy wise. Do either at the expense of your clutch. I used to on occasion back them out of the Passport trucks, didn't smell very good in the truck when I was done.

    Just to be sure I don't lose the whole thing this time I'll respond 1 question at a time.
     
  4. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    #4 ferrarifixer, Oct 26, 2004
    Doody, I think you've got most things understood now, but your habit of going into neutral before stopping is potentially dangerous.

    When you select neutral the engine goes to idle and the manifold vacuum is greatly reduced. Your brake booster/servo relies on vacuum to provide assistance and it's possible you could get caught out one day if you suddenly need a bit of extra stopping power.

    This applies to any vacuum boosted car, not just F1 360's by the way.

    Many cars don't use vacuum so it's not an issue, but check your car. Teves ABS 355 don't but Bosch ABS 355 do for example.....
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,093
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #5 Rifledriver, Oct 26, 2004
    Taking off from a stop. You will find as you familiarize yourself with the car that you can hear the differences in the tone of the motor as the clutch applies a load. You all can, you have been doing it for years and subconciously using that data to modulate the throttle and clutch pedal. The only difference is that now you have only one source of input to perform both jobs. If you take off from a stop very timidly the clutch will slip for half a block, If you just whack the throttle open the car will be obscured by tire smoke. Find a happy medium, if you want to go slow leave the stop a little aggresively and roll out of the throttle once the clutch hooks up. Give it a little time, but pay attention to the car and you will learn quickly. In terms of selecting gears, there is no reason to get out of 1st quickly, just drive it the way you would a six speed. The only time you have to do anything different is at very slow speeds (0-10 mph or so) stop and go driving takes a little getting used to. You get too slow and the clutch wants to disengage, you stay on the throttle to lightly and the clutch will slip. Sometimes instead of going real slow its better to stop, let everybody go a little and the catch them, Just pay a little attention to the car and you will get the hang of it.

    At stops like many others I was taught to put it in N for several reasons. You still can, I do, just be aware it is having no effect on the trans or clutch good, bad or otherwise.

    Down shifting to a stop, you were taught correctly but did you buy a CS to be frugal? All kidding aside do it which ever way you are comfortable with, the car doesn't care.

    As for clutch wear or trans wear issues, with the exception of the R thing already covered 99% of clutch wear is from taking off from a stop. That 99% will come fast if launch control is used much, sport or race wont matter.
    As for trans wear, the F1 has 900lbs of hydraulic pressure at its disposal to shift gears, hot or cold that trans aint gonna say no. It's most gentle shift compared to how you and I do it is very violent. I predicted when those came out (and I can prove it) that F1s would be breaking and wearing out transmissions like crazy, I was wrong. I have personally experienced more transmission, internal mechanical problems on 6 speeds than on F1s. Bottom line: Use Std, Sport or Race any way you like.

    If you need anything else, let me know.
    Brian
     

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