360 - Heat Exchanger Leak? Gearbox/Coolant

YHM is new to me but I now know it means "You Have Mail" and indeed I do!

Thank you Aldous. I wasn't aware you'd been down this route previously, I don't think you posted about it on your Bianco thread.

Some great tips and advice in your mail. Very much appreciated. I GOL (groaned out loud) when I saw the picture of you lying on top of the motor for those last few nuts at the front!

 

Just one gratuitous photo to mark commencement.......
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I knew before I started that removing the intake manifold wasn't going to be easy. Once I got started I was concerned I'd bitten off more than I could chew but a phone call to fellow Chatter Voicey had me on the right track pretty quickly and it was slow and painful progress from there on......

Remove air box
Remove throttle bodies
Remove coil packs and disconnect electrical connections to free cable to be released back to loom which runs inside the manifold
Remove knock sensors on both sides and also pass them through to the loom on the inside
Remove connection to water temp sender and pass plug outside manifold
Remove fuel rails and injectors complete and place to one side (they can actually sit safely down on top of the exhaust headers without straining the cables)
Undo whatever mounts secure the harness under the manifold to the manifold body
Release 8 x 10mm nuts at base of manifold on each side being careful not to lose any of them
Try lifting and figure out there's still a load of other stuff keeping it hitched but now it's resting on the studs so you've gained a valuable inch and a half extra space to work underneath and figure out what the hell is keeping it from releasing
Release further harness clips and vacuum hoses
Release big vacuum pipe (after a battle) which supplies the brake servo and then curse when you hear a big vacuum release when you finally manage to get it off and figure out how much easier that particular job would have been if you'd thought to pump the brakes several times to purge the system.
Smile when you realise you have now managed to disconnect everything and the manifold (with plenum covers still in place) can be lifted away and clear
Stick clean cloths down each inlet to prevent any debris falling down to the valves
Climb into engine bay for the 20th time and release and remove the heat exchanger

Photos below.....

1. Front end of exchanger (coolant circuit) - appears chalky white, dry, almost like limescale
2. Back end of exchanger (coolant) - darker in colour, has a "wetter" look
3. Front end (oil) - the inner rods can be clearly seen
4. Back end (oil) - the inner rods are all clogged up with crud

Further analysis.....

There is considerable resistance when I blow through the oil circuit. I haven't actually received the replacement part yet but suspect that the new unit will have a lot less resistance. Will confirm later.

Covering one of the oil openings and sucking on the other there is no difficulty creating and holding a vacuum. How long for I don't know, but long enough that I got tired! There's every chance that the leak is very small and also that it needs to be heated up in order to fail so I'm not concerned that it passed this very basic test.
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See below a photo of the breather on top of the 1~4 bank. It's loose and responsible for the slight oil leak in at that area. Can anyone advise how to remove it? Perhaps it releases from within?

What I mean by "loose" above is that whatever the rubber pipe fixes to is loose on that side, not the pipe itself or the union on top. Any thoughts welcome
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Coolant AND Gear Oil both!

Seriously, quite apart from the cost of the replacement Heat Ex unit, the job of changing it out is a total PIA (and I'm only half way through it). My back is aching and my knuckles and hands are scratched to bits!

Changing the gear oil and flushing the coolant are an absolute walk in the park compared to having to take on this dirty, messy, difficult job and there's always the danger of upsetting a lot of electrical connections which haven't been disconnected for a long time..... something way well present itself as a problem on reassembly.

More regular changes in the past may or may not have prevented this apparent failure but I don't think they could possibly accelerate a failure and so on that basis I'd certainly recommend both be done annually.

 

Hi All,

A question for you if I may..........?

I've been prepping for re-assembly and while I've been careful to take notes and photographs I have a nagging doubt about something. There are two main looms that travel from the front of the engine bay towards the rear down inside the inlet manifold, one on each side. Is it correct that the loom on the 1~4 bank connects to the throttle and MAF on the 5~8 bank and vise versa?

Car is a 360 Modena.

Looking at the way the cables are naturally lying and the bends set in them over time I suspect they do indeed connect to the opposing bank but would like to know for sure.

Any one know or can check for me?

Much appreciated!

Greg.

 

Cheers Aldous, a little push in the right direction is all I needed...... I was going to ask you but I perceive that things are a little different on the Spider.


The throttle bodies and MAFs do indeed cross over to the opposing bank.
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Thanks for your contribution Dave. Voicey had already suggested replacement of the two overflow pipes. One is simple enough as it connects at the thermostat housing, the other follows the route of the brake vacuum line and I couldn't easily locate the closest connection point with a view to changing it out. I guess with your same advice added here now I will take another look and see if I can figure out where it goes.

8mm pipes at the radiators. I haven't had these apart so not that familiar with the various hoses. Are we talking about the No. 19 and 21 pipes shown on the diagram below and if so are you recommending replace the entire route or just the pipes which connect to the upper part of the radiators?

Simple Green - I've Googled. We don't have that brand on this side of the pond. I see they have several varieties of product. Which one would you recommend for this particular task and I'll try and get it's properties and find a suitable replacement. Maybe the Simple Green Pro HD........? http://www.simplegreen.com/products_pro_hd.php

All thoughts, comments and contributions gratefully received. I'd like to get this right first time!
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Incidentally, if anyone is taking on this job DO order a set of replacement washer/gaskets for the banjo joints on the heat exchanger. While I was cleaning the old ones with a view to re-using or replacement with copper crush washers I realised that they aren't simple washers, they have a rubber or silicone insert to assist them in bonding and while cleaning them up the gasket fell apart.

See below the old - one gasket still in place, the other having fallen apart.

...... also the replacements sourced from a hydraulic fittings supplier. I also took the opportunity to obtain several larger ones for gear and engine sump bungs as I've no doubt they form a better seal than the copper crush washers I usually use.

It's a shame these gaskets aren't supplied automatically with the replacement exchanger. They really are necessary and could easily have put me back a week or two but fortunately I was able to source an equivalent replacement with relative ease.

One more thing to report. The new exchanger does indeed "flow" much more clearly than the old one. I'd say the old one was well and truly blocked with crud (as shown in the photo above) and would have been restricting gearbox oil flow quite considerably with knock on effects in terms of temperature maintenance and wear.
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Thanks Dave, I'll do all the inaccessible hoses now so.

I've found a product which might do the trick. A "Bactericidal Detergent" - non toxic, bio degradable, food-environment safe. "A super concentrated broad spectrum de-greasing, cleaning agent which cuts through grease and grime fast ..... a super-concentrated, highly efficient, bactericidal cleaner, Stertone Blue Xtra is recommended for both industrial and domestic situations and may be used on stainless steel, ceramics, plastic, glass, Formica, PVC, paintwork, tiles, walls and floors. Stertone Blue Xtra is ideal for use in the food processing industry, food retail outlets, restaurants, hotels, butchers, schools and offices" I have a mail in to the suppliers asking about potential damage to rubber hoses.

I presume that when you mention acid that we're talking about removing the radiator from the car and flushing it totally separately from all the rubbers and seals etc. Obviously the challenge in my case is to find a product strong enough to break down oil deposits but not harmful to the seals and pipes.

Thanks Matt - all encouragement gratefully received!

 

Made some solid progress on reassembly but ran into a hitch - I cannot find the torgue setting for the 16 manifold nuts. I've looked and looked in the WSM but cannot find them, maybe tirdness, maybe I'm just blind. Anyone have the spec to hand?

Thanks!

 

Thanks a million guys! I presume by the responses that the info is not there in the WSM.

....... another night in the garage coming up!

Thanks again.

 

Stage one more or less complete.

Got everything back together with minimal drama. One part that was particualrly tedious was the hard-pipe that hooks up from the breather pipes on each of the cam covers (anodised blue on a CS). This was particulary difficult to get threaded up properly and I was all the more pissed as it really didnt need to have been disconnected in the first place!

Another little drama along the way........ The new exchanger came with protective plastic caps on both ends and both oil ways. I left the protective caps on the coolant ends while I torqued up the oil unions. Having got the exchanger into place and got the rubber boots back on (with some difficulty) I sat back and admired my work and counted only three of the plastic protection parts. Grrr..... either I'd dropped one somewhere or left it in place. Had to break off the boots again and sure enough there it was right on the inlet side of the exchanger ready to totally disable all cooling! I was annoyed with myself for foolishly leaving it there but very pleased at noticing before I'd gone any further! It really would have been too much to have had to strip everything back again for such a silly error.

To re-fit the manifold (having carefully inspected and cleaned all inlets of debris) I laid a couple of layers of cloth over the studs and then sat the manifold down on top. This prevented any scratching of the lower part of the manifold and held it from popping down on the studs. This gives an additional inch and half or so of very valuable operating space with which to work to reconnect the loom straps, vacuum hose and various other bits. Once everything done up nice, just take the weight off the manifold and tug the cloth out and then she drops down easily.

I'd never taken fuel rails and injectors out of a car before I was nervous about getting them seated correctly and even more nervous about re-starting and potential fuel leaks but all worked out simply and correctly.

I had the battery on charge and anticipated some difficulty with starting due to the empty rails but to my surprise she fired up pretty quickly and while it did so without the usual bark from the exhaust it settled down to a normal and regular idle within about 15 seconds (no more than one would expect from simply killing power to the ECUs).

I ran the engine for about half an hour and other than coolant flowing from the bleeder valve which I'd left open there appear to be no leaks.

Having thoroughly warmed up and bled the system I went for a short drive. This is where I get a little emotional. Ohh the joy! What it is to own a Ferrari. I haven't driven it since 11th Feb but it feels like forever! What a joy it is. Just to fasten yourself in, feel those snug carbon seats supporting you, check your mirrors, blip the throttle and pull away...... she slots into second easily (but it's well warm by now right?) and the feeling as I make that first turn and feel the responsiveness to the steering input ........ happy days! I only drove a couple of miles but the bark from the exhaust tells me all 8 cylinders are firing correctly and all is well in the world.

So.... stage one complete. Degreasing agent in coolant system, cheapo oil in gearbox, I'll be flushing for a while I think, that will be stage 2...........

Sincere and heartfelt thanks to all contributors here. Whether you offered sympathy, encouragement or technical advice I really appreciate it all. Special thanks to Aldous @voicey for your emails, PM's, photos, and talk-through on the phone when I began to doubt myself - Thanks mate, you're a real pal.
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Relieved? Oh Yeah! I was very conscious of potential CEL errors etc having undone as many electrical and other connectors and having spent as long as I did walking and crouching around in the engine bay so it was indeed with relief that she started up and (so far) seems to be fine.

I haven't cut open the old unit yet, but yes, I'll do it in a wee while and post up the results. I suspect I have no chance of locating the actual failure point unless I took it somewhere for pressure testing but that it will prove to be be extremely restricted on the oil side due to accumulation of sludge and debris.

 

You're not the first person who has suggested that the fluids go both ways but apart from the return of slight diff-chatter I actually didn't notice any gearbox problems and certainly have found no evidence of coolant ingress to the gearbox.

I did find the gearbox breather though! Having connected the exchanger I thought it a good idea to pressure test and try and make sure there were no leaks. My heart sank when I could hear air escaping from somewhere...... I then carried out a smoke test (Marlboro Red being the smoke source!).... and found the gearbox vent as a result!