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360: High cold oil pressure

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by mfennell70, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    Cold (say 40F), my oil pressure goes right off the charts as I spin the motor up. I don't mean redline, we're talking 3500rpm. My personal arbitrary comfort limit is 105psi, which is ~2500rpm when the motor is just waking up. Once it's warm, max pressure is 90ish, right about where it's supposed to be, right?

    Steve at Arena put a mechanical gauge on it and he confirmed the behavior. He's going to dig into the oil pump and check the pressure relief valve. The working theory is that maybe the valve is binding up a little.

    Curious if anyone has seen this before. Any BTDT info I could send Steve's way would be great.

    Random details: '01 360. 24k miles. Redline 5w40 changed yearly.
     
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  3. stevew3765

    stevew3765 Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2012
    716
    Tulsa, Oklahoma USA
    Full Name:
    Steve Wool
    I have a 97 355 and my OP gauge is jacked also. It should be around 70 at 3k rpm but, Its at 10/20 at best at 3k rpm. And Oil level is perfect. So, I will be watching this thread to see how it turns out....Best of luck.
     
  4. TTFerrari

    TTFerrari Rookie

    Jan 16, 2013
    2
    That is fine. Colder temperatures cause high oil pressures and when the oil get warmer, you will see lower numbers.
     
  5. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,312
    I tend to stay under 2000 RPMs with my 95 F355 until the oil temperature comes off the needle. When I bought the car (13 years ago) the dealer told me not to go over 4000 RPMs untl the oil temp needle gets off the peg.
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    32,776
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Mitch- Most of the owners manuals say not to exceed 4000 rpm until oil temperature is at or above 70 C/158 F. Where that is on the gauge varies with model. 3rd mark on a 575M is ~157 F.
     
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  8. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant Owner

    Dec 29, 2006
    17,728
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    OEM instruments shouldn't be considered precise by any standard. More of an "impression" of oil pressure (or temperature) than an absolute. I would recommend rigging up a "known" mechanical gauge to confirm before making any changes.
     
  9. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    To address a few points above:

    1. As mentioned in the post, a mechanical gauge has confirmed the readings. Steve saw 150psi.
    2. I always keep it under 4k cold, even less since noticing the problem. I get sky high pressures anyway. As noted, 2500rpm and it's already at 105.
    3. Its true that oil pressure is higher when cold but all cars have a release valve to limit the max pressure.

    I really dont think this is normal unless the relief valve is undersized. Honestly, though, i cant say i ever noticed the gauge until catching that it looked wrong.
     
  10. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,365
    NY
    I had a similar problem with my 308. Cold it would go to 125-130 psi at around 1500 rpm. It stayed above 90psi even when warm but didn't go past 100psi up the rev range. This happened all of a sudden so I installed a mechanical gage and verified it was not the dash gage. I pulled the oil pressure relief valve and found a small burr/worn area on it. I polished it down and reinstalled it and everything went back to normal. 60K miles on it if that makes a difference.
     
  11. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    Thanks Steve. I'm hoping something similar is found.
     
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  13. stevew3765

    stevew3765 Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2012
    716
    Tulsa, Oklahoma USA
    Full Name:
    Steve Wool
    Well. Unless you just robbed a bank. Couldn't you sit there in idle till the oil comes up to temp? Just sayin...
     
  14. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    You certainly could but I think without knowing the root cause, it would be crazy to ignore the issue. If it's a pressure relief valve problem, what's to say it can't start sticking constantly open rather than preventing full opening? That would certainly ruin your day.
     
  15. stevew3765

    stevew3765 Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2012
    716
    Tulsa, Oklahoma USA
    Full Name:
    Steve Wool
    True that! There is another thread I am involved in called "checking engine oil level" in the 355 section. The thread asked a question about Oil pressure. With some pics. You should check it out. Sounds like you would have good information to share...
     
  16. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,350
    Osprey, Florida
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    Ali E. Haas
  17. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    If your tech has verified that the pressure is high then it needs to be checked out. Like noted the pressure relief valve is more than likely sticking closed and not blowing off the excess pressure. If left as is and the valve stays closed you run the chance of blowing out the oil filter gasket and having all the oil dump out onto the ground.

    I good way to see if the PRV is functioning properly is when the engine and oil is cold hook up a mechanical gauge to the engine. Start the engine and watch the needle it should be swinging back and forth as the PRV opens and closes. An electrical Gauge is damped from the spikes in pressure so you get a steady reading.
     
  18. stevew3765

    stevew3765 Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2012
    716
    Tulsa, Oklahoma USA
    Full Name:
    Steve Wool
    Well for me. It reads Low though the oil level is high....
     
  19. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    Quick update.

    Through some cosmic alignment, a 360 reading LOW oil pressure is in the shop, also confirmed with a mechanical gauge. Both pumps were out so he swapped them. Problems followed the pumps. Other car cursed with high pressure, mine with low.

    Unfortunately (in my eyes) no evidence of a sticking valve in my pump. It apparently slides freely. New springs are on order for both cars. I can see that possibly helping the other 360, but not mine. Springs normally get softer, through use, don't they? Even then, an oil pressure spring doesn't see anything like the cycles of a valve or suspension spring.

    I should know tomorrow.
     
  20. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    Parts came in late so no news yet. Won't know until Monday afternoon. I know I'm driving Steve crazy. :) I just hate not knowing.

    All the external symptoms point to a valve that won't move past a certain point. Max pressure is right on when the oil is hot so the valve must move freely within a limited range, right? Unfortunately, no binding has been found.
     
  21. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    Picked up the car today. It appears to be fixed with new springs.

    I was surprised too.
     
  22. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
  23. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 11, 2009
    807
    Central Virginia
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Mike,
    Sorry to hear of your problems...I wonder if this could be an obstruction in the oil/water heat exchanger?

    Where did he actually apply the pressure gauge to check the oil pressure? The OEM port?
    Regards,
    Pete
     
  24. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    Eh, it's a Ferrari, right? Two troublefree years is like winning the lottery.

    The oil cooler is on the scavenge side so I don't think it could affect it. The oil/water exchanger you're thinking of is for the transaxle.

    I assssume he used the OEM port but I did not ask.

    Unfortunately, I need clear my lift of another car before I can start looking at it a little more. What started as an alignment has become one of those recursive "crap, now I have to take THIS off to get to THAT" hassles. :)
     
  25. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 11, 2009
    807
    Central Virginia
    Full Name:
    Pete
    I've never had that problem with my car. :)

    And crap...I forgot that exchanger was in the transmission oil circuit. ;-)

    Best of luck!
    Pete
     
  26. Pau1

    Pau1 Rookie

    Nov 28, 2012
    2
    Aberdeen, Scotland
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Any update with the outcome of this? My new 360 has developed the same fault.
     
  27. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    Nothing yet. The car is on my lift with the sump off. Pump is still in the car. I was slightly disappointed to find that the valve comes right out when the springs are removed. I had hoped to have an "a HA!" moment when it bound up on something. No such luck.

    The valve looks very good with only a tiny bit of marking. Marks are smooth with no gouges.

    When I run my finger into the pump, there might be the slightest burr on the bottom of the oil relief hole, or it might be my imagination.

    Planning to contact Ricambi today about parts.
     
  28. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    #25 mfennell70, Mar 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Looked it over again last night. Although I can't really see or feel any wear, I noticed while moving the piston up and down in the bore that it only takes a tiny bit of lateral pressure to cause it to bind up. It appears that it's possible for the middle "shoulder" (for lack of a better term) to catch the oil relief hole. In that case, the hole would only be partially uncovered, bleeding off some pressure but not all, which is the symptom I appear to have when cold - high idle pressure is ~90psi but it ramps up from there.

    Here's the cutaway view of the assembly.


    It's tough to see but there are actually 3 interference points between the piston and the bore. The top (pointed to by E), just above the middle (right where the top of the spring terminates) and the bottom (right about the middle of the spring in the picture).

    As much as I hate throwing parts at a problem w/o a smoking gun - not to mention having a little discomfort taking the oil pump apart - I'm going to order up the housing, piston, and outer cap (A in the pic). The springs were previously replaced.
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