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360 360 Intake butterfly valves broken??

Discussion in '360/430' started by brookliner7, Jul 22, 2019.

  1. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    Had an oil change at and Indy shop then started having a hard time with cold starts.

    Then a little smoke at start up occassionally the next week.

    Went racing and then started becoming down on power in the low end occassionally.

    Then the next week started stumbling under accelerarion and down on power.

    Pulled the MAF and found oil in the intake.

    Indy said they are sure it wasn't overfilled ans found the butterflies on the driver side had no tension and were floppy and broke.

    Have you guys heard of this failing before? I did a search and didnt come up with much


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  2. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
  3. Some Guy in the sky

    Sep 19, 2018
    34
    Interesting, When I bought my car it had both of these pieces disconnected. My indie said he had never seen that before.
     
  4. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    Not weird, I had it before. actuators went bad all the time.

    BUT, are you sure this is what caused your power down?

     
  5. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
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    Hans
    no, not yet. Maybe a combo with this of oil from separator, fouled plugs?

    Going to install some catch cans, I have the old 1999 oil separator known to cause problems, newer ones should have a better design. But for me, catch cans more effective however and likely cheaper.

    It was running just fine?
     
  6. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    personal experience is that the extra oil is because somebody overfilled the oil.
    I had a weird acting butterfly valve before and I didn't even notice any difference in performance until my friend told me he saw the actuator visibly bad
     
  7. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    just like I thought, the butterfly problem won't cause the issue you described, or so is my experience. Nor does the oil overfill
     
  8. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    Well...that bums me out a little to hear this...

    I never got a check engine light so if Ferrari Diagnostics really isn't of any help in this situation... It seem to be one of the biggest Achilles heel of this car, the onborn Diagnostics is so ambiguous and useless even if it was indicating a problem.

    Well, I can maybe take off the whole intake Runners and replace the intake gaskets while it's apart?

    I have done some reading before and heard that one of these failed could have caused some problems ... my cars in 1999 has 40,000 miles
     
  9. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    intake runner isn't going to cause huge performance drop

    so if i were u, i'd fix that actuator and clean the oil and see if power drops still. If you still drops power, espeically over a bump or some curb,
    check your gas padal sensor wiring down at your right foot


     
  10. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    did you have this before the oil change?
    or you don't know if you had this before the oil change? ( because u didn't go racing before that?)

    does ur mechanic really know the 360 well? aka do u trust him?

    fouled MAF because of oil overfill could cause what u described
     
  11. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
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    Hans

    he had suggested that at first, the maf.
    so when I took it apart to clean the mass airflow, I noticed the oil at the throttle body and continued with disassembly.
     
  12. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    3,344
    isle Of Man
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    360trev
    Few points as I'm travelling.

    1. Older 1999 model ecu engine software was only half completed when it launched, I'm guessing they where under pressure to launch so a LOT of diagnostics are not enabled! Even crazy important things like detonation sensing was off in some cars! Thankfully I can reflash and upgrade to 2005 spec which yields big improvements. I can show exactly what is and isn't enabled if you tell me your ecu part number. I can use my Ferrari Swiss Army Knife tool to dump the data directly and show exactly whats on and off.

    2. The oil disarator along with older design suction piping can result in some hot weather circumstances that a vacuum is created which pulls oil up and into intakes, even if only very slightly over filled. It's a design issue that was corrected on later cars. The only way I found to resolve this was to fit a catch can and delete the EGR or restrict it. The Newer disarator design is the flat topped.

    3. A louder sports exhaust can cause the intake manifold switch over to literally rattle itself and vibrate loose. I've seen this before and since this can happen it's worth checking it regularly if you have a loud system fitted. I noticed a big drop in power when my system stopped running correctly when I used to run a titanium system without any sound baffling.
     
  13. Some Guy in the sky

    Sep 19, 2018
    34
    This explains why my car never threw a code due to my original coils (manufacture date feb-99) arching so badly that is smelled like someone was burning rubber rain boots over an open fire. Changing them all out made an enormous difference in performance. I'm going to have to check which ecus I have when I get back home from my work trip and get back in contact with you with that information.
     
  14. Some Guy in the sky

    Sep 19, 2018
    34
    Sorry I can't answer this question because I only drove it around the block before I bought it because it had 15 year old belts and was to afraid to drive it. After that it was put on a truck and shipped directly to my mechanic for a major service and cam timing. Although after the major service I did notice that I was getting sporadic power drops in the high end that ended up being original coils that needed to be replaced.
     
  15. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    225
    Finland
    Sorry to borrow this thread but can I simply just stuff my hand between the intake runners and try manually if my butterfly valves are rattlings or not. I suspect but can't verify because sound come and goes. I have quite loud decatted Tubi system installed onto car by previous owner so its been in the car like 5 years - at least.
     
  16. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jun 10, 2007
    5,193
    Lake Villa IL
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    James Moran
    If they are stuck closed I think it would drastically reduce high rpm power. Long runner with 2 90deg bends vs short straight runner.

    On the other hand, a big decrease in low/mid rpm power if stuck open.
     
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  17. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    Thanks so much for taking the time to reply, I think after I get the car mechanically back together I may invest sending the ECUs to you over the drink. Is it possible to tune them?

    I plan on adding two catch cans, well it was pretty hot when we are racing here in Texas so maybe there was some oil expansion, slightly over filled, and a bad separator design combine together cause some problems.

    The titanium exhaust was ridiculously loud, yes I can totally see how that could rattle some parts, thank you so much for your insight and makes good sense. Glad I went back to a Valved stradale style set up :)
     
  18. tifosi101

    tifosi101 Karting

    Jun 12, 2013
    51
    France
    Don't you think oil vapor into the air intake manifold is a good point for the "natural" lubrification of the butterflies components and linkage ?
    That is why I never had the courage to connect a little filter to the oil disarator.
     
  19. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
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    Hans
    #19 brookliner7, Jul 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
    That's a good point, but if you can see from the picture with the air intake cover off, I have pools of oil.

    I'm still having a hard time believing that all accumulated from just racing it once and having a bad oil separator design.

    My guess is that since it was running worse and worse over time that it was fouling the plugs.
    The mass airflows look clean but I cleaned them anyways.

    And just an FYI, here in North America that tie rod is not available at any of the Ferrari dealers.
    :(
     
  20. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

    May 20, 2018
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    One4torque
    Brook- check ferrparts
     
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  21. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    Thx, I'll check their site. Eurospares in the UK was able to track down a used one
     
  22. one4torque

    one4torque Formula 3

    May 20, 2018
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  23. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    Let me do the legwork for trev. and shipping to China is actually cheaper than to ship them to UK, believe it or not: $66


     
  24. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    305
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    Just to update...

    Well, car back together, High Velocity stack butterflies now working, ran no different...hesitiates with initial throttle input, down on power through the whole rpm range, sounds like it's running on 3 cylinders on cold startup.

    No check engine light.

    Pulled plugs, drivers bank looked a little oily( side where the butterflies were broke) replaced all plugs, car runs better than when I bought it 1 year ago.

    Glad to have her back home!


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  25. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    3,344
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    360trev
    On a 1999 so few CEL tests are working that it's unsurprising you don't get any. Time for a reflash me thinks...
     
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