360 intermittent starting issue

Odd. Do you recall seeing the triangle symbol on the instrument panel?

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On some Ferraris of this era (e.g. 550), the inertia switch (crash detection) system activates the hazard lights, but I haven't been able to find any wiring linking the two together on the 360. And I'm not entirely sure you could cancel the hazard lights with the hazard switch if there had been a "crash" (?).

How about the fuel cutoff symbol. Was that shown?

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The 360 should cut off fuel after a crash (or inertia switch malfunction), but I don't know if it would stop engine cranking.

Do you know where the inertia switch is on the 360?

Perhaps a heat or vibration induced problem.

As explained many times on the forum, pushing harder doesn't help. If it did, your new switch would be so out of adjustment, I think the switch would prevent the brake pedal from returning to its resting (up) position. With the pedal in the fully up position, the switch plunger should just be touching or lightly pressed by the back of the pedal arm.


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If your brake lights don't come on with, say, half brake pedal travel, you have some adjustment issues.

 

P.S. I'm assuming you have an F1 gearbox.

Here's a handy tip

The car must be in 1st or neutral for start.

 

Sorry... Correction. Brain fade... The switch plunger should be more than touching or lightly pressed. It should be pressed enough to activate the switch. It should be open circuit or closed circuit depending on the type of switch fitted and the pins being used to check the resistance.

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The newer type switch (blue) may have a slightly different alignment procedure.

 

I can't say I've heard of many ignition switch problems on cars of this age. To prove the switch ok, I guess you would need to do voltage checks at certain points on the car. However, getting the car to misbehave and at the same time having a voltmeter ready to do checks and having someone to assist you might require a bit of luck.

I don't know how accessible the plugs are on the steering column. It may be best to pull the start relay behind the left hand seat and check the voltage on pin 1 of the start relay socket (as someone turns the key to start). Put your voltmeter negative (black) probe on a good earth. Pin numbering (for relay socket) shown here:

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Start Relay shown in red.
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Maybe you could first leave the relay in place and put your finger on it to see if it clicks as you turn the key to START? If it doesn't click, try swapping the relay with another one (say the Windscreen Wiper relay... located top right of that same relay block). The relay numbering varies from car to car, but the start relay (and all the other relays) can be found in the same "relative" positions.

Of course there are lots of other causes for no start. e.g. an immobiliser issue.

 

P.S. If the relay swap doesn't work, return the relays to their original positions, then try a second relay swap (relay 89 directly above the start relay and the wiper relay. Relay 89 is also involved in the start process.

If the car bursts into life with a relay swap, don't assume it's a relay problem. It could just be coincidence. Also, if the relay doesn't click, also don't assume it's a relay problem. It could be the ignition lock or another issue. There are lots of inputs into these relays.

 

Note that the immobiliser also controls the hazard lights as well as engine start. However, I don't know why pushing or cycling the hazard switch on the centre console would turn off the hazard lights when triggered by the immobiliser.

 

In my experience, this is almost never a coincidence. Go back to that, and do it again.

 

Its probably not the brake switch. Ferrari did a really stupid thing. On all 360 prior to Assy number 48527 they used 2 brake vacuum check valves that were prone to failure and a failure of either one (or both) would cause loss of vacuum when the engine was shut off. It can take 2 seconds or 2 hours. With no vacuum it is very difficult to press the pedal far enough to activate the brake light switch to start the car. Install 193186 near the booster.

 

My brake lights activate with less than half full pedal travel. Wouldn’t you notice if your brake pedal was only moving less than half way down?

Mel, next time it happens, recheck your brake lights. Who fitted your brake switch and was it different from the one that was originally on there?

Anyway, if it’s a brake switch fault, they are easy to check with a multimeter. Just let me know how many pins there are on it.

A brake issue doesn’t really explain the hazard lights flashing though.

 

Happens all the time. People pay no attention to how far pedal goes.
F1 brake switch has 2 sets of contacts. One for lights, one for F1.

Inertia switch is down on left side of foot box covered with rubber plug.

 

Not all have two sets of contacts. The early cars didn’t.

According to the wiring diagrams, the same set of contacts operate both the brake lights and the "start" logic. The wires are spliced together.

 

Here's a diagram showing the brake light circuit:

https://www.dropbox.com/t/KFXPfd9xVOKnG2x7

See 14D on the right hand side of the diagram. Follow the wiring from pin 3 (red wire) to plug 12D/19D to splice S35D. Some wires go to the brake lights, some wires go to plug 6G/11G and on to splice S90L. One of the wires on this splice goes to plug 16G/11P (to the F1 system).

The other contact seems to be a fault checking circuit*, but as this switch contact opens instead of closes when the brake pedal is pushed, it cannot provide power to the brake lights.

*I assume this because both switch contacts feed the RH Motronic ECU on the later cars

 

Brian, do you know if the inertia switch activates the hazard lights? I haven't been able to find a link. If there is a link, it would have to be hidden on something like a CAN bus.

 

I recently had this exact same issue on my Toyota Pickup. I traced it to a little bit of corrosion on the electrical connector which plugs into the starter solenoid.

In the attached photo, I believe my arrow there points to the same connection on the 360. You might want to check that and clean the contacts. The fact that it's intermittent makes me think it could just be a bad electrical contact perhaps.

Ray

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Here's a little better pic. The connector I'm referring to is marked by the #1 there:

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Always good to go back to the basics like this. We tend to overthink the problems on these cars.

Having said that... What's the link between the starter motor and the hazard lights?

Mel, is there any sign of attempted starter engagement or is there complete silence? Is the start relay even clicking?

 

Another common issue with 360 starters. The stud the battery cable is attached to is directly connected to a large flat copper contact. When the solenoid piston is forced back a copper ring on the OD of its rear face contacts it to run the starter motor. When the starters are taken off for whatever the stud will turn with the nut causing the large flat contact to turn so the flat surfaces are no longer facing each other. A very small contact surface is then left to carry all the current, a condition that will not work very long. It can be fixed without removal of starter. Just remove 3 screws of solenoid of end cap and realign the big flat contact. Done it many times.

 

There ya go.

Brian is the man... so I would start there.

Electricity (especially when a lot of electrons want to flow) requires a clean path. I'd also check the solenoid electrical connection while you are in there.

Resetting the ECU is always a good idea. Also make sure the battery is in good overall health. Resting voltage should be 12.67 or 12.73 volts usually on a conventional battery or a touch higher on AGM if I remember correctly.

Ray

 

I wish I had a dollar for every electrical issue I solved on my pickup truck using some sand paper and a little WD-40

Ray