360 manual clutch not disengaging | FerrariChat

360 manual clutch not disengaging

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Chopperman, May 24, 2019.

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  1. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    360 manual won't go into gear with engine running but will when engine stopped.

    I've had the gearbox out and renewed the thrust bearing seals as I thought this was the problem.

    Bled the slave cylinder.

    Put it in gear and then start the engine, it creeps which means clutch not disengaging fully.

    Suggestions?
     
  2. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Possibly a bad master cylinder not moving enough fluid. Could be air in the system.
    Am I reading right that you renewed the seals because of this issue and it did not change?
     
  3. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 30, 2005
    1,163
    Toulouse (France)
    Full Name:
    Eric DECOUX
    How is the pilot bearing ?
    Can you see the clutch disengaging through the access door when you press the pedal ?
     
  4. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    Bled it again. Pedal moves ⅓ before I hear the pressure plate creak.
    Renewed the seals in the thrust bearing.
    Trying to find pedal adjustment infi
     
  5. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    Yes and I can hear it creaking as it moves.
    Resistance of pedal increases very very slightly when moves ⅓ down and then it moves the thrust bearing. Just at looking for pedal adjustment
     
  6. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    Adjusted the pedal and all it does is move the pedal back and forth.
    Thrust bearing is moving about 1cm
     
  7. jg360

    jg360 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 8, 2018
    319
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    John Gurrieri
  8. eric355

    eric355 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 30, 2005
    1,163
    Toulouse (France)
    Full Name:
    Eric DECOUX
    1 cm is not that bad. That's the order of magnitude measured on F1 cars with the clutch position sensor, between a closed clutch and open clutch.
    Again, have you checked that the pilot bearing is not starting to seize ?
     
  9. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Try pumping the petal very quickly with no pause and then see if the action of the petal is higher than before. If it is, there is still air in the system. I use a pressure bleeder and it will bleed completely air free and still have a bubble trapped in the system. I then have the pressure bleeder attached and have another tech pump the petal quickly and hold it down, then I bleed it again still holding the petal. That usually gets the last bit of air out. Unlike brake systems, the fluid stream actually moves and to create the action at the bearing. This is why pumping the petal will make the petal feel better. it compresses the air bubble and then the petal moves more fluid instead of compressing air. When released and allowed to set, the air bubble expands again and then you will have a soft feel at the petal as the petal has to compress the bubble before moving the bearing. I suspect that is why you only have 1/3 petal action.
     
  10. radlu

    radlu Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2005
    411
    Obstruction in the line.
     
  11. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    1,070
    Collapsed pressure plate. Did you look at the fingers of the pressure plate when you had it apart. It is common for the plates to fail and when that occurs often the fingers will be at different levels and the plate will flex rather then disengaging the clutch. What started the problem? New clutch, surfaced flywheel any other repairs leading up to the problem? These can be very difficult to bleed if you have gotten air into the master cylinder or line near the master cylinder.
     
  12. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2013
    434
    Sydney
    I didn't know 'creaking' was normal with clutch. Indeed the operation of engagement and disengagement should be silent. Its likely a part of the clutch disc has separated, effectively making the driven disc thicker. No amount of bleeding will help. In this case you need to inspect the clutch driven disc and pressure plate.
     
    tbakowsky likes this.
  13. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    I have had the gearbox off. All components are good.
    The creaking is the noise of the pressure plate springs doing their job
     
  14. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    That's my thought. My pump up Draper pressure bleeder cap is too big a diameter. I am waiting for the shops to open after the Bank Holiday to buy another pressure bleeder with a smaller cap.
    I was also thinking about getting my wife to pump the pedal at the same time as I have been told by a Ferrari tech that they are a pig to bleed
     
  15. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    No blockage. Fluid flows freely.
     
  16. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    Clutch problem/gear selection solved.
    Totally flummoxed after changing the clutch master cylinder and it still won't go into gear.
    Laid on the floor, thinking what could the problem be after all these weeks, looking at the thrust bearing going back and forth as my wife pushed the pedal.
    Luckily, the flywheel had stopped in a position that when I stopped focusing on the thrust bearing, I noticed the fingers on the pressure plate were not all inline with each other. They were about 7mm out of line.
    The photo shows the pressure plate relaxed and not torqued up to the fly wheel which made it worse.
    I have changed both the pressure plate and clutch plate which has about 70% life left according to a Ferrari independent if anyone wants a cheap plate? (UK)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    f355spider likes this.
  17. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    17,940
    USA
    Thank Windsock for the win!
     
  18. Chopperman

    Chopperman Karting

    Nov 21, 2018
    51
    Weston Super Mud
    Full Name:
    Gary Priestley
    I read Windsock feedback just after I had posted the result. I had not read it earlier as I have been consumed on this conundrum and fixing other jobs that business, wifey, houses, kids and life throw at constantly
     
    f355spider likes this.

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