360 market values

Hagerty September Valuations for the 360 are out, and are worth checking if you are interested in the topic. For example, a 2003 Spider F1 is down a bit from a few months ago, but roughly flat for the past two years. For a #2 car, Sept. 2015 $82,100, Sept. 2016 $81,300, Sept. 2017 $80,000. During that period it got as high as $86,100 in May 2017.

Hagerty's general Ferrari Index (the average value of 13 cars from the '50s to the '70s) is also roughly flat over that same period, adding the comment, "Expect a modest decline through the end of the year, especially for more 'volume' models and models that are otherwise relatively easy to source."

This is a good resource. It is free to sign up and has a great deal of good information: hagerty.com

 

The Ferrari Market Letter is out for Sept. 30, and shows a modest decline in asking prices for 360s for the past six month and past year, although still up over three years ago. The Aldous Voice 360 Market Watch is also out today and shows a decline in the UK asking prices over last month, and an 8% decline from the UK market high in the summer of 2016. The Hagerty Price Guide No. 34 (4th Qtr. 2017 issue) is out, and shows a 1% drop in the past 12 months in their broad Ferrari Index, and a more significant drop in 360 prices since Guide No. 33 of three months ago (a 9% drop for a 2003 Spider F1 Cond. 2, for example). Aldous Voice notes, "The overall luxury car market has been slow for some time due to a gap between vendors expectations and buyers willingness to pay." As always, his web site is a great resource for us: https://aldousvoice.com/2017/10/02/ferrari-360-market-watch-october-2017/

 

The Ferrari Market Letter is out for Oct. 28, with little change compared to last month. Both Modena and Spider are down slightly. The Aldous Voice 360 Market Watch is also out for November, and in contrast he writes, "Ferrari 360 prices have actually firmed up a little since last month – the average asking price is back above £80k . . . ." His Market Watch is always worth a read:
https://aldousvoice.com/2017/11/08/ferrari-360-market-watch-november-2017/

 

I see the 360 as the equivalent of the 964 in the Porsche world. It is the 2nd to last model of a distinctive line of cars (air-cooled flat-6 in Porsche, analogue V8 here in Ferrari) and going through a spell of being, at worst unloved or, at best, not given the full credit of its best features. Hopefully, in not too many years, people will appreciate it better and the value will spiral upwards, just as the 964 has done.

 

I think that is an interesting analogy! It looks like you are in the UK; Aldous Voice has better statistics on UK prices than I have been able to find here in the U.S. Some interesting things to note in his data (which is great and deserves a careful look, if you haven't already done so): the asking price in the UK was low in 2013 and has increased by about 70% by 2016. Since then it has dropped a bit, but not a huge amount. It is still about 60% over 2013. I hope you are right and that it will continue to go up!

It also interests me to see in his data that a Spider averages about 5,200 pounds (about $6,800) more than a Modena, which is less than most sources see here in the U.S. Also, a gated manual averages about a 12,600 pounds (about $16,600) more than an F1, which is considerably less than the $50,000 premium Hagerty is quoting for the U.S., although I would note most folks on Ferrarichat seem to think Hagerty's premium is unrealistic. Finally, and I think this is really interesting, Aldous Voice's data on the delta between manual and F1 shows a steady increase as mileage goes up! So, for a low mileage car, the difference in price is relatively small, and as the mileage increases the difference in price increases. That seems quite curious to me.

I highly recommend the Aldous Voice web site; it is full of great information for us. He is doing all of us who own a 360 or 430 a tremendous service.

 

Aldous is a great guy to have in the Ferrari world. For pricing data... I think he would tell you that the US and the markets he follows closely are very different. I would not hesitate to reach out to him for technical info for our cars but for pricing data you will need to use your local market info.

 

Good point. But I think the trends tend to converge over time, from what I can see. You collect some great data on gated 360s! Thank you! But I can't find a single source of U.S. data that is as extensive, or is as carefully segregated, as the U.K. data on Aldous Voice. And again, it seems to me the trends converge over time. So, while you are absolutely right that one should always use local market info, I think there is much that can be learned from his data, too, particularly about general trends.

 

Nah, I take it back: my memory was that the trends were pretty consistent, but looking at the historical data I can find on the U.S. I'm not sure that is true. On the other hand, the historical data for the U.S. from different sources (Ferrari Market Letter and Hagerty, for example) is not consistent, either! So, I guess I would say you are absolutely right, you should use local market data, when you can find it and trust it. And that the Aldous Voice data is very interesting, although it may or may not suggest trends to come in your local market.

One interesting point that I have not seen discussed is that my 360 Spider, as well as most of the collectible cars I have bought and sold, was a private sale. It never went on the "market" as such, so would be hard to include in any data set. I wonder how many of our cars go to someone who already knows the car, and therefore never hits the market.

 

Private sale prices seem to be pretty close to "recorded" sales so not sure that effects much. After all the "market" effects all sales.
Two things as I see it. There were a lot of 360s produced, relatively speaking. Secondly, there's just not a lot of folks these days with an extra 70K to 110K to spend freely as they wish-- especially on a used car -- even if it is a Ferrari (financing and maintenance being a concern).

I'm seeing a divide (not to get political, because I'm not) in the economy that we hear a lot about: Middle class is shrinking big time. My brother in law works for a large boat manufacturer in sales and in the last 10 years has seen large boat sales plummet. Dealers (of over 20 years) selling the larger boats are closing their doors. Myself owning a business and knowing others who do I can tell you the "folks in the middle" are evaporating. College costs, raising a family --cost of just about everything involved in raising a family have steadily climbed for decades now. Middle class wages have not kept pace-- not even close.

AutoWeek had an article several years ago about the new Corvette. Citing that it was curious that all the folks that own a Corvette (new or classic) were the "gray haired" crowd or the "no hair" crowd. But certainly not anyone in their 30's. Now I know that's Corvette not a Ferrari, but still...

 

Well thought out post. I have posted here a number of times on this topic. I have 3 kids, plus a son in law and various kids we have kept close to in the 20-30yo range. They respect exotic cars, but seem very focused on tech advances. They don’t become attached to stuff, and I just don’t see them spending all kinds of money for maintenance of an exotic.

Their generation has been programmed by the latest tech advances trouncing the prior, and planned obsolescence. From my recent experience this generation has more of an interest in a tesla-X than a Ferrari.

I believe the internal combustion engine in passenger cars will be a relic in the not to distant future. This will pose an interesting dilemma for us older guys that have held onto our cars. Look at the generation before me. Those guys all have “hot rods” reminiscent of the ‘50’s. Those cars have plummeted since their high.


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I dunno, sure there's lots of midlife crisis and retiree types in vettes, but I see lots of douchey young guys in them also.

 

I don't see many young guys in any exotics here in Florida. And there is money in my town. Quite a bit of it beachside-- and given the Corvette's looks (albeit not my tastes) and HP, kind of have to classify it as an exotic.

There's still a strong following of the collector car market by those with the cash. So while I can see the younger folks gravitating to the Tesla SUV with it's center screen the size of a new iMac, the older collectible internal combustion engine stuff will still be a huge segment. Think SEMA and other related industries. There's a lot of money in this old car business that relies on it's continuation and participation of consumers. Internal combustion engine cars will probably be relegated to only special limited use kind of cars. But for production stuff, daily drivers, absolutely see the petrol powered cars replaced by the alternate fuel stuff. And that to me is also a good thing.

What I can see happening is less cars being restored. There's been a lot of cars "done" in the past 30 years. The cost of restoring one is always more money than buying one that was done correctly and documented. Look at the 250 GTCs and 330's of the 1960's. I saw one prominent dealer offering several project cars for between 189K and 250K. A beautiful black 330 went for 330K at RM a few months ago. Could you build one of the advertised projects for that? Would you if you had in it when done with it exactly what that 330K would have bought you? I think most folks say I'll take this one and start driving it tomorrow to a cars and coffee event.

Restoration is a passion. Some still feel it and I applaud that. But fact is IMO, there are a lot of 360's 430's and other marques that are not selling only because their aren't enough buyers with the wherewithal to make one of these cars appear in their garage.

 

Thanks KGC and Raimondo. Nice analysis. Having restored several cars ('55 Chevy, '53 Bentley, '62 E-type) I can confirm that, in my case at least, restoration is a passion that is rarely financially rewarding. I don't know what the 360 will do over time. To my eye, it is a beautiful car. Minor ups and downs aside, it seems to me the market has been basically flat for the past three years. I'll try to do a better analysis in January, when we can add 2017 to the data. What the market will do in the future is an interesting question! You have made several interesting points about where it may go.

 

Bob, thanks for your analysis and input. Have you seen Kevin’s thread on Modena manuals? Perhaps you guys can collaborate.


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BOB: Totally agree. The 360 is to me one of the most beautiful, tastefully flowing designs ever. And I too have "done" many cars and I love them all. The fact that those that see my 360 still believe it's a brand new Ferrari bodes well for how well the design has weathered-- and will probably still look appropriate for many years to come.

Is there anyone out there who doesn't still stand in appreciation of a 30's Cadillac, Lincoln, or Chrysler? Beautiful flowing lines always seem to hold out better than sharp, creased, and trendy designs.
The Ferrari 360 is simply a home run for me and I would not be surprised to see them slowly gain in popularity over many other Ferrari models of the past-- which for me, I couldn't care less one way or the other. My 360 is going to be with me for many years and I will enjoy it without regard to market value up or down.

 

Raimondo: I really admire Kevin's thread on the Modena manuals. It is a lot of work and he has done a great job. It would be great to have an analysis like that for the F1s and the Spiders, but his diligence is well beyond my ability! I try to post occasional summaries of data that other sources maintain. I enjoy the comments and insights that other folks on the forum add to the conversation, such your recent comments and those of KGC. Thanks!

But ultimately I am with KGC, when he writes: "My 360 is going to be with me for many years and I will enjoy it without regard to market value up or down."

 

I hate to bring up a old topic, but I'm an old guy who just bought Ferrari #5. I was not looking for one (have a 4C Evora 400 gearshift, modified supercharged 997, i8 and others) but there it was a 1999 360 with 1200 miles (it spent its life in a climate controlled garage). Algar put over 21K in service (their cost) in the car, but as they said on their website, it is time capsule. A 18 year old brand new car without issues, and not a mark on it, still smells new inside, manuals were never even opened. So how do you put a price on a car like that, I offered them what I thought it was worth, and after over 10 cars purchased from them over the years, they agreed to take my offer. I have always thought a good deal is nothing more than a state of mind (and since this is car #463 or 464 I have a lot of experience), and only you can determine what a good deal is to you. I pay no attention to what someone else says I should pay for something, each car is different, each person is in a different situation and place in life. When you get older you realize the more time you spend looking to buy something the less time you spend enjoying it. I never thought I'd own another Ferrari, but I just could not pass this one up.

 

That's the red and tan car, right? An F1?

 

Agree whole heartedly as just bought my 6th Ferrari which was a 3000 mile 2015 certified 458 with race seats, lots of carbon etc.. At that point in life where anything can happen at any time though nothing is really wrong. Been looking a the 458 since it came out in the States in 2010. Enjoy looking at all the posts regarding depreciation. All cars depreciate,at times you pick the opposite ( a crape shoot) . Unfortunately did this with the 88 TR,& the Modena 04 which led to depreciating garage queens,but most of all lack of enjoyment of the marque,and the forever feeling you could not trust the car from an electro/mechanical basis or God forbid a scratch or worse a Carfax blackmark. Carfax is not what you think it is. Seen many Dealer cars damage badly at Port o r other ways- No Carfax. My first F car a new 246 GT in 73 was not a queen, but well taken care of & put approx. 35 thousand fun filled miles, loved the car and still miss the memories,it's sound. It had a total repaint as getting some rust and hated it original rare gold color. Did I want shields,-hell no as only ones that had them were the race car (Decals) and my car was about purpose, not about jewelry. The Modena is a great car. Have fun with it ( rower or F1)! Mine never left me stranded except recently,the day of it's sale when the battery out of the blue self destructed.

 

Congratulations on the purchase. Seems like a really special car. Are u going to put miles on it, or sit on it as an investment?

You have purchased 464 cars, that’s mind blowing!

Btw, 1200 mile car that was climate controlled, what cost 21k in parts (I take it “their cost” means parts) to repair?


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Thanks! It is a red/black F1, and yes you leave one of these cars sitting for years and you will have issues. The good thing is that now everything was done (even new tires), so outside of an oil change it should be good for a few years. I do not care much about what things are going to be worth, I bought because I thought is was a shame to leave a car like that just sitting, I intend to drive it.

 

My former 456M was eleven years old with 7,069 miles when I drove it off the lot. It took $19K in maintenance and repairs before it was properly sorted out. Then it was fine for five years.

The cars of circa 2000 can be made reliable.

 

Congratulations Morrie! It sounds like a great car and I hope you get many years of pleasure from it.

Aldous Voice issued his December Market Watch today, and Ferrari Market Letter came out last week. Both show a slight softening in the 360 market, but basically the news is that there is no news: the 360 market remains relatively flat. (Although I suppose that is good news, compared to the depreciation one would see on a new Porsche, for example.) I'll try to do a year-over-year comparison when the January numbers come out.

 

I've finally sold my 360 spider for 70K. It took almost 2 years (including a year consigned at a dealer) and 15K worth of repair investment to do it. Does that mean a sorted F1 360 is worth 70K and one in need of a few services is worth 55K or less? Hard to say. But 55K is technically what I sold it for because I never would have gotten close to 70K without getting it serviced. Aldous Voice is a great 360 resource but frankly he has no clue about the values in the US and how soft the US market is. Well, now I'm hopefully just between Ferraris now but I hope I do a better job buying the next one than I did this one.

 

I wonder if the gap between F1 and manuals will keep widening as more and more DCTs are sold but less manual cars.