360 market values

Congratulations, Dave, on selling your car! I know it has been a difficult road for you. I hope the new owner enjoys the car, you have done a lot to put it into great shape, and that you move on to a new car that makes you happy (and I hope it is another Ferrari!). Cheers!

 

The whole exotic market is down, there are deals to be found everywhere.
It will rebound again eventually though. If you are not satisfied with the sale price you could of just kept it for a bit longer.

 

Very true Jonsav. But how much longer? Normal cars deprecate over time. Will these recover like 355s and 348s? Maybe. If that takes longer than 3 years I’d have to do another major. Would this thing have gone awhile without breaking something else expensive. I doubt it. Stuff like that goes through your head when your selling. I think it’ll be a long while for the 360 due the volume of cars out there.


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Congratulations on the sale. IMHO you make money when you buy a car, not when you sell. If I sold my high mileage 3-pedal red/black sport seats euro for much less than you sold yours I'd MAKE some serious profit.

So does this mean that you'll be picking up a 355? I can't wait to hear about the experience with that...

 

A year ago, in the January 2017 edition of Ferrari Market Letter, Cathy Roush wrote an excellent article about their Asking Price Index. She discusses how the Index is derived, emphasizes that its value is in following the trends in the market, and discusses some of those trends for some models. She then writes: “Alternately, the TREND for the 360 has leveled off. That means over the last three years the 360 has held its value, neither losing nor gaining significant value, if you will.” The January Asking Price Index is now out for 2018, and the trend for the 360 is still basically level. In fact, the Asking Price Index for both the base 360 Modena and the 360 Spider has been basically level since January 2012, with only minor fluctuations. So, for example, the asking price index for both in January 2018 varies by less than 2% from the asking price index for January 2015, and the variation since January 2012 is not much more (3% and 6% respectively). If you don’t subscribe to the Ferrari Market Letter, and are interested in Ferrari prices, I would strongly encourage you to subscribe. The Market Letter has much more detail and great analysis, including monthly price reports. It is well worth a subscription.

Hagerty has issued its values for January 2018, too. They show a bit more variation than the Asking Price Index. (Hagerty purports to reflect the actual selling price of cars, rather than the asking price.) The average values for the 2003 360 Spider F1 are basically flat since January 2015, and the average values for the 2003 Ferrari 360 base are basically flat since January 2013. Interestingly, the average values for the category of all 2003 Ferrari 360 Spiders (which I presume includes both gated and F1 cars) went up in January 2017, remaining flat (and up) in January 2018. Since the values for the F1 Spider are flat and the values for all Spiders (including both F1 and gated) have gone up the past two years, I would assume the increase in later category is attributable to an increase in the value of gated cars. Basically, the values for the Spider F1 and all Spiders are very close from January 2012 until January 2017, when the category of all Spiders goes up while the Spider F1 category remains flat. (These numbers reflect an average of the four Hagerty classifications based on car condition; individual classifications can vary more.) If you are interested, check out the Hagerty reports for the 360s. If you are confident of your car’s condition, and have a different model year, you might want to look at the specifics on the Hagerty web site. It is well worth joining the site (it is free) and visiting from time to time.

Aldous Voice has also issued his January 2018 values, but I am persuaded that the UK values he lists are sufficiently different from those in the US that there is little basis for comparison. The discussion above is basically for US cars.

 

waiting for someone who will say this is all bs and the values have gone down by 30%

 

I'm your huckleberry.

Not saying 30% but the asking price being level since 01/01/12 is contrary to my experience. I bought my 456M on 03/15/12 for $75K because I couldn't afford the circa $130K the 360's I wanted were advertised at.

I had a $100K budget then, $140K this time. The 360 seems less expensive now than in 2012.

 

We are reminded often that the reason the 360 will never really be worth mega bucks is because of the numbers of them that were made. This really needs to be considered when you think about the market. More cars means more cars for sale but more with stories and more miles, more wrecked, abused, etc. I always look at the more expensive cars that are for sale at any given moment to try and understand the market. It is a bit higher to my eye than it was in 2013 and 2014 which is a long time to hang in there for a car model yes? Those sub 10k mile cars that were more plentiful 5 years ago are fewer and fewer.

 

My rub with this argument is there are obvious winners (i.e. production of less than 500 cars with a crazy price tag) and then there are *should* be winners. Porsche 928 *should* fit this. Technically rarer than a 356 but isn't worth **** even 40 years after it was introduced. 911's *shouldn't* be worth as much as they are so many made vs the price. Should a 1983 911 with 130,000 miles be worth $30k+? I don't think so but to some it is.
The rationality of car values defies rationality for so many cases. I don't understand why they made so few 3-pedal 360's. I don't understand why under 5 or 6 Californias were ordered in 3 pedal, but that's the case. I've been on FChat a while spewing my obnoxiousness there have been many many people stating how "high production numbers" will devalue everything.
It's been the refrain of posters that live in Ferrari-land. Where every other house has a 458 in the driveway. For the rest of us in the real world, this perception is BS. OTOH what is "mega bucks"? $500,000? $1,000,000 ? Why would there be an expectation that ANY car be worth that much? Even 90 year old Model T's aren't worth that much.

 

Basically the 360 has bottomed out.

 

I think so, which is why I bought now. My rule of thumb is circa ten years after the last car is manufactured, you see the bottom of the market. Last 360 was made in 2005, so 2015 is where you start looking for the bottom. I think 2017 was the bottom. This is why, even though I started out shopping for a 612 to replace my 456M, I ended up with a 360 (And I have a 308 already). The last 612 was made in 2011, so 2021 is when I would start looking for the bottom. My 308 should be completely restored by then, and perhaps the 308 market will be in a better place. With an F1/a 612 and a stick 360, I believe I will achieve nirvana.

The last 456M was made in 2003. I bought mine in 2012, and they have not gotten any lower.

 

You know I am with you on the absurdity of it all. Personally I am a fan but the 928 is a love or hate design to me so the values reflect mostly "hate" ;-)
I actually think that one day the 360's will be mega bucks but it's after I am gone. :-(

 

I’ve always liked the 928. I remember being in high school and wanting to see those funky headlights when up. Took years for me to finally see that.

I looked into getting a clean one about 10 years ago from a friend. It was then I learned these are not great performers, I was disappointed and passed. I actually liked driving the 944 better. I may be wrong but I think this is the reason the prices never rose.


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To be fair I only ever look at the sub 10k miles examples, I rarely buy anything over it.
Was cross shoping between a gallardo and 360 back in 2012. Prices are about the same now from what i was seeing.

 

I don't limit myself to low mileage cars because they aren't worth more and they don't cost any less to sort out. The 456M had 7K miles and it cost almost 20K to sort out. I bought it because it was Rosso Corsa with shields and a tan Daytona interior. I would have bought it if it had 20K miles on it, and it might have cost less to sort it out. The low miles thing is a fetish with modern cars.

Again, there were almost no sub 100K 360's when I was shopping in 2012. They are everywhere now.

 

Sounds like my 89 xjs. Just never took off, and prices were in the toilet. Total underperforming GT with v12. Bought for 5k in 2005 sold in 2015 for 1300 bucks running with new top! No market, and just wanted it gone. Funny that 2 seater car got worse gas mileage than my suburban with 7 passengers pulling my boat!


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I searched througout 2012 and bought at the end of that year and agree that prices for like cars appear to be fairly stable, if not down a few %. In 2012 my recollection is not seeing a lot of "higher mileage" cars for sale whereas I see a lot of those now. The big difference is that gated cars appeared to have been less desirable and may have been more difficult to sell. I bought F1 for the cool and "new/exotic" factor and always believed I could just sell the F1 and get into a gated car for the same cost when I had enough of the F1. Oops!

 

You guys need to realise that electric cars are the enemy. Prices will rise and fall over the years, but when electric cars become mandated and the Internal Combustion engine becomes uncool and socially unacceptable, the bubble will truly shatter, for ever.

 

It looks like most are F1, with only a few gated.

 

My 89 Maserati spyder is essentially worthless! Its a great car that has been very reliable and I just did the timing belt. There were approximately 220 brought the the US and I suspect that there are far fewer today.

 

I would love to have a 612 too! Its almost like they are the 348s of the 12-cylinder world. I think they are cool and beautiful! I also think the 348s cool too! I would also prefer a gated manual. The ask for a gated manual 612 tend to be > $300k and the F1s seem to be creeping below $90. I am seeing listings in the $80s and there are a few on eBay in the $70s.

 

I'm going to start doing some resto work on my 308 because I think that market will go up again. I bought mine before the bubble a couple of years back, so I got it at a good price. If that market goes anywhere close to what the last bubble peaked at, I should be able to sell it for close to what I think the 612 values will be in three years. The 456M made me appreciate the 612, but I don't think I want a manual anymore. With a car I'm going to vacation in, the auto mode is a good thing to have, and the F1/a will be enough engagement I think. They are amazing cars, and can be made very reliable. So beautiful too.
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I just wish more people would drive their cars. Everyone thinks low millage is worth the $$$ but how reliable is a car that sat for 10 plus years with only 10k miles? 1k miles a year, that's barely enough to warm the car up lol.

 

I prefer to look at the data regarding values, rather then rely on anecdotal evidence. But the data is funny: on the one hand, as Kevin notes above, we are told that there are too many 360s for them to ever be "worth mega bucks". On the other hand, there are so few (in my opinion) that the market is a little thin on the ground, which means the data is tricky to interpret. Look at Hagerty's numbers: are there really enough (for example) 2003 360 F1 Spiders in Condition 3 to set a market price for any three month period? I'm not sure about that. Hagerty claims to base their valuation on actual sales, but does not reveal how they do that. The Ferrari Market Letter, on the other hand, looks at all advertised prices and then applies their "secret sauce" to adjust those. If you take the average price for 360s listed in their letter as available for sale in a given month, it generally will not be the same as the average price listed for that month. I'm sure that is one reason Cathy Roush emphasized you should look at the trends their numbers indicate. And it does seem to me that the data, even given its apparent problems, indicates the trend in the market price for 360s has basically been flat for a long time.

That is not necessarily a bad thing! Many sports cars -- including many Ferraris -- are depreciating. At least when I put money into my 360 I can tell myself that someday I can sell it for roughly what I bought it for. (Maybe; if I'm lucky.) So, flat is better than a long slide down!

When all is said and done, I suppose the fair market value of any car is always what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller, with neither being under a compulsion to buy or sell. In other works, what you can get for it. Until I'm ready to sell, I'll keep looking at the data, despite its problems, because in my mind it is better than any alternative I have found. And in the meantime I'll keep enjoying the 360; what a great car!