360 oil change | Page 2 | FerrariChat

360 oil change

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by solly, Aug 6, 2004.

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  1. RAYMAN

    RAYMAN Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Mar 10, 2004
    315
    Oklahoma
    Full Name:
    Raymond Santilli
    What a shame, can't even change the oil now without being scared to death. Soon, you'll have to have a computer hooked up to your car to open the hood. The future is bad for the do it your selfer, and that's half the fun of owning a car.
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I am a Ferrari mechanic so I don't know much about the two cars you own, but I believe they are both wet sump motors. The 360 is a dry sump and the 360's oil tank is quite a complicated design. The portion of the tank that is visible is only the upper extension, the main portion that actually holds the oil is the transmission case that surrounds the differential and is quite a convoluted design. I do not believe you can even get a hose to the bottom of the tank to suck out the oil. To compound that problem in a dry sump motor some oil stays in the oil pan of the motor and as soon as you shut it down oil starts to run from the tank back through the pump to the oil pan. There is no way to get your hose to the oil pan on a 360. If sucking from the top was a preferable method and the car builders felt that this was a good method they could save a lot of money (and every car builder is cost concious, even Ferrari) by not bothering to provide drain plugs and just tell their dealers to buy a suction pump. I have to admit, I am lazy, I like to do everything the easiest way that insures a quality job, but until proven otherwise I have to believe that the suction pump method is selling only because some people just can't be bothered to jack up their car
     
  3. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    So Brian, what happens if you don't compress air the line and clean the mesh filter? If you change oil once a year?
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    In practice it is rarely done. On any motor and most especially a dry sump with all it's attendent plumbing you never get all the oil out. The oil line doesn't hold all that much oil, not as much as an oil cooler on many prior cars and nobody ever worried about that. Almost every car has a pick up screen and we never worried about those in the past either. Ferrari has over the years had problems leaving debris in the motors so the first change an inspection of the screen to get all the bits of aluminum out is a good idea. We have in the past on many cars upon changing the oil filter the first time found large (sometimes 3 inches long) curls of aluminum from the various machining operations stuck in the passage at the bottom of the filter. All that only applies to a regular oil change, If you have some reason to suspect problems that would be another matter.
     
  5. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    Brian

    Reading this thread do you think Solly damaged his engine by sucking the oil out while running?
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    I hope not, it was a very bad idea. The motor in an idle state can run on probably 3 qts, If he was monitoring the oil press while he was doing it and did not see it go down, it's prob OK. Just don't ever do it.
     
  7. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,333
    SF, Bay Area
    Thanks for the explaination!
     
  8. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    I'll verify that you cannot suck oil out of a 360. In retrospect it wasn't the best idea I ever had, but the red mist was descending over my brain and I needed some track time.

    Even at lowest point car still had >5 liters of oil, plenty for lube at idle speed. The CH also has a very accurate multi-mode digital dash, totally different than a street car which allows second by second monitoring of pressure and temp, and which I jumped to every 30 seconds. Never strayed out of normal range. Car ran great at the track.

    Having said all the above I don't recommend this procedure except in a dire emergency, and I'll be having the dealer change out the fluids from now on.

    I just really enjoy working on cars, and have plenty of free time. Too bad they have engineered all owner involvement out of these cars.

    Tomorrow I start taking apart the Dino to swap out an alternator. No computers, just good old fashioned backbreaking work.
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I understand, and am glad it worked out. And your last statement is correct, it is to bad. You are forgiven my son.
     
  10. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Steven.

    Manual is on the way. UPS'd today, you'll have it tomorrow.

    good luck with the alternator. Post how it went when you're done.

    Dave
     
  11. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 3, 2001
    7,802
    LA
    Full Name:
    Frank
     
  12. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    As my martial arts teacher drummed into me years ago "pain is the best teacher of all". Maybe I got lucky this time and will escape the pain. Certainly learned something new.
     
  13. RF128706

    RF128706 Formula Junior

    Apr 8, 2004
    280
    Solly, you have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. I e-mailed your post to my buddies and pinned a copy to the notice board at work (I work for a big car company in product development). Everybody thought it was an April fool joke. How we all laughed...

    Anyway, the reason for the post is to say I take my hat off to you for coming back to the site and your subsequent comments. A lot of people might have just melted away.

    If you have spare time you should enrol in some car maintance classes at your local tech. college. You only really need some basic skills to drop the undertray and undo the drain plugs to change the oil. The classes will give you the confidence to tackle the job and the teacher will probably let you bring your car in and use their hoist after a couple of weeks.

    I don't know about US, but here in UK there are loads of colleges running basic car maintainance classes.

    I don't need to fix my car myself, I can afford to take it to the dealer, but working on it myself gives me a lot of pleasure (and I KNOW FOR SURE it's been done right).

    Once you've picked up some skills I'm sure you'll feel the same.

    Good luck,

    Rob.

    PS. were you a medical doctor ? My ribs hurt (from laughing)
     
  14. vlamgat

    vlamgat Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2004
    776
    Dont you love the bit about detatching the oil hose from the radiator and blowing the residual oil out with compressed air! Sheesh!
     
  15. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    The Challenge is at the dealer for a thorough going-over prior to Labor Day FCA track at Watkins Glen. The Spider has been fully serviced and there is absolutely nothing for me to muddle with. The Dino's alternator died permanenetly last week (it had died before but I brought it back to life by swapping out the Frankenstein master fuse on the firewall). Death confirmed by my trusty multimeter.

    Put the car up on jackstands, removed passenger rear tire and inner stone guard and HOLY ***T. They must have dropped that motor into the space with vaseline and a shoehorn. You can't get to anything. I can just about see the bolts that hold the alternator to the tensioning bracket and to the block, but unless I was Gumby there is no way to get to them without removing the gas tank, exhaust manifold, a/c system, etc.

    Back to the manual so kindly sent to me by Dave (thanks again), but all it says is "remove this, remove that, lift out the engine" It doesn't exactly tell you HOW to remove this or that.

    This car is going to the dealer as well. I'll spend the rest of the weekend waxing the truck and trailer.
     
  16. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
    14,648
    Land of Slugs & Moss
    Full Name:
    Han Solo
    Esprit,

    I have to disagree with you on a number of points.

    1. Metal particles do not remain suspended in oil indefinately, they sink to the bottom of the oil pan because they are heavier than oil. In between oil changes accumilation occurs on the bottom of the pan, not the sides.

    2. Unless you can sweep the bottom of the pan entirely with the suction hose you are only going to draw a localized amount of debris (dirt/metal) off of the bottom of the pan.

    3. When I pull the plug on my 308 all 10 quarts of oil gushes out in less than 90 seconds dragging the heavier elements in the pan with it. Much faster than suction through a tiny hose stuck down the dipstick tube.

    4. I let the engine drip for at least an hour. During this elapsed time oil is still draining out of the internals of the engine, moving across the bottom of the pan taking debris with it.

    When pulling the pan on an engine with 100k or more I find sediment on the bottom of the pan, not the sides, even on cars that had regular oil changes. On cars that were neglected I've scaped sludge off of the bottom that was 1/4" thick.

    Idealy, if it were practical, pulling the pan and cleaning it with every oil change would be the best for an engine.

    I have to vote for the traditional 'pull the plug' method.
     

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