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Discussion in '360/430' started by one4torque, Aug 29, 2020.
No Orig from Michigan.
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9.29.20 update -
now road testing with my diag tool... it reads cat ecu temps real time and can data-log.
Start-up / idle - 840 deg F
Aggressive drive to coffee shop - 1050 deg F (max temp)
Post coffee (15min cool down) - 870 deg F
Aggressive ride home - 1040 deg F (max temp)
Per aldus voice - 900c is when slowdown light is triggered..... 900c is 1652 F..... so I'm well below "slow down" threshold.
Temp gun on cat inlet, and outlet:
460 deg F / 780 deg F
So appears cats are functioning
No Slow Down Light.
No glowing cat at cat exit piping....
slight glow at the inlet o2 bung....
Will post up smoke test results of intake system when it arrives from the magical amazon parts supplier....
Received smoke tester today.
Tested 360 manifold - and NO leaks in the intake system.
Buttoned up the car, and did another test run with diag tool on..... max cat temp is 1050deg F which is well below "slow down" threshold.
Cats cool down quickly at stop lights.. back down to 850-900 deg F.
I'll call this case-closed for now.
So 2 weeks later.... and the silly quick flashy slow down re-appears.
Hooked up my scanner and drove some miles hard/soft fast/slow..... ecus shows max temps @ 1040F well below "slow down" flash threshold.
In fact when it flashed again I was on a cool down run..... cats were cooling down to 960F..... then quick flash on decel to a stop.
So technicstrada aftermarket cat ecu on order.
To recap my troubleshooting:
1 - new battery
2 - removed the following items I installed at last service: put OEM fuel inj back on, put OEM coil packs back on, put OEM air box/filters back on
3 - smoke tested for vac leaks... found none.
Visual shows no glowing cats.
ECU shows max temp of 1050F.... well under slow-down threshold.
SO ECU onorder.
Hope this helps some other plonker out there.
We have 100% solved this issue with SAK. We went with the same method that Bosch did in their ecu's on late spec F430's and REMOVED the cat thermistors and cat ecu's altogether. They simply use cat temperature estimation modelling as a way to trigger a slow down or fuel cut.
If you go with the upgraded ecu software route is vastly better than any other option as there is simply much less to go wrong. No thermistors to go brittle and crack wiring on, no cat ecu's to go bad and just updated software.. No wonder Ferrari did this and now so can you.
If the Engine ECU reads 1050F, doesn’t it means that the cat ECU are functioning properly as the value it reads is what the ECU shows?
It would indicate to me that the slowdown comes from somewhere else. Was are the other causes?
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foto- good catch, and correct logic.
I guess I have a new cat ecu on order in any case.
Will see if the cat ecu can transmit proper voltage/temps to my obd reader.... AND yet still kick out erroneous instantaneous voltage spikes which trigger the flashing slow down.
I'm never getting a continuous slow down...... it flashes so fast you have to be watching to notice....... like a glitch or voltage spike from the unit.
Will see what the new ecu does.
andTREV.... I can never reach you bud..... so while I know you have some cool stuff... you are unreachable....
Momentary flashes are what I saw, too until I swapped in new cat ECUs.
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If any of you guys just want this done once and forever (fit and forget) then please don't pm me, simply get in touch with Aldous of AV Engineering Limited in Kent, UK. As some on here have discovered I am very busy and don't get that much time to respond to the many messages I get sent.
The solution can also either delete or raise thresholds for cat efficiency too so you never get CEL's even with cat delete or sports cats (again the cat extenders never work properly in the long term, just get the software fixed once and for all). At the same time you can also delete the secondary o2's (less to go wrong, less parts to replace). So just the fact you no longer need secondary o2s, thermistor probes or cat ecu's you are removing a lot of failure points and making the car more reliable.
Any other non software solutions have more failure points, more to go wrong and all will eventually fail, whether its a fatigue of the temperature sensors (thermistors) or the cat voltage converters (with all the noise, vibration and heat cycles the resin cracks and water ingress kills them) or any of the associated wiring and connectors (each with their own potential for corrosion), none of this is necessary.
Trev I'll keep that option in mind sir.
Cool you are at AV!
Here's my update:
My OBD reader can only read the ecu 1 side.
Today's drive: still getting the flash slow-down after long accel, then long decel.
Pull over and each cat is glowing in the darkness.
ECU bank 1 (the only bank I can read) shows cat ecu model temp @ 1050F. (which is way below threshold)
Also check fuel trims on bank 1 -
short term near 0
long term @ +5.5% (indicated slightly lean).... but totally within +/-10% range which I understand is OK.
Here's what I'm going to start checking:
fuel pump - check fuel pressure at idle. Could be a failing pump or clogged filter causing lean cond?
header leak @ heads - could be an ex leak here causing o2 (1 position) to read lean and cause engine to add extra fuel?
ex leak @ header to back cats..... I did re-use the donut gaskets here..... this fitment is a bit weak IMHO..... have new gaskets.
Perhaps back cats are sucking in O2 and this extra O2 is super heating?... it would seem an ex leak would not SUCK in ambient air.......
but will check this.
Back cats could be bad..... can do a visual. I have some aftermarket 200cel cat pipes to install.
Fun with trouble shooting.
I'll also fit the new cat ecu's when they arrive.
Troubleshooting update 10.20.20 1PM
Fuel Pressure both rails 50-52 at idle. Going to call fuel pumps good. Not going to try and data-log fuel pressure real-time at this point.
Found some extra Mass Air Meters - I'll a/b test these.
I've got some primary O2 sensors on order. - will throw those in when they arrive.
Going to put the car up on stands and see if my header nuts have come loose.....
turned battery off, then on
installed my old Mass Air Meters.
found a couple rubber hose clamps loose on the valve covers.... seeping oil vapor from the oil can tightened those up
checked all vac lines again on top of engine... and for the air injection into the headers - all tight.
after all this.... stft hovers around 0.... ltft same..... but will learn more after 1st drive.
primary o2 sensor v static @ .45.... then creep up to .455....... not seeing usual sweep. Might need a better scan tool . or it's reading the back 02 sensor. Will search for a more capable reader.
** tune out if you don't want to watch an old man troubleshoot.
hopefully this line of logic/effort is helpful to someone..... once I figure this out.
Spirited drive with my other set of MAS sensors.
Feels much stronger all around.
LTFT ~ 0.....
NO slow down light on this 20 mile hammer time trip.
Now just a faint glow on the upstream O2 sensor... no other glowing on either side.
Will put on more miles before I claim success for the 3 rd time.
I'm actually not at AV, I don't even live in the same country but they are very good friends whom I trust. They also look after my 360
Eddie and I go back well over a decade and Aldous is fantastic, he certainly knows his stuff so when they offered to help out ( I simply don't have enough time to help everyone who asks ) I was happy to oblige.
Good luck with the CEL's!
Thanks TREV - although we've never met in person.... you seem like part of my dysfunctional car family...... thx for the support.
1 4 torque, I'm watching your troubleshooting with great interest. I hope that you solve it. And tell us how you did it. Bill
I figure you can pop open a brew or tea and watch me celebrate success or cry in despair. All free of charge.
Im enjoying the trouble shooting. and it’s not my daily... so maybe I’ll learn a thing or two.