360 Spider 2003 top does not complete the down cycle | FerrariChat
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360 Spider 2003 top does not complete the down cycle

Discussion in '360/430' started by ScottDav, Nov 14, 2017.

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  1. ScottDav

    ScottDav Rookie

    Aug 2, 2013
    7
    #1 ScottDav, Nov 14, 2017
    My 360 has been at my local Ferrari service dept. for two weeks and they can not solve my problem.
    When putting the top down the canvas raises then the painted cover opens then the top(canvas) lowers
    into the compartment then the painted cover should lower but it doesn't move. The procedure stops and the cover will not lower. Oil level was checked, micro switches are all good but the cover still will not lower, I can
    even press down on the top but no movement of the cover. I then go to raise the top and it comes up fine
    and the cover lowers just fine and completes the top up cycle. So my problem of the cover not coming down only happens when I try to lower the top. My dealer is trying to locate a wiring schematic. Thank you
    for any help. Scott
     
    gregyfastferrari likes this.
  2. JoeTSI

    JoeTSI Formula 3
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    Joe K.
    #2 JoeTSI, Nov 14, 2017
    How old is your battery and are you doing this with the car on?
     
  3. jjsaustin

    jjsaustin Formula Junior

    May 11, 2008
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    Austin, TX
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    Jim
    #3 jjsaustin, Nov 14, 2017
    Likely it has worn elastic straps and the middle bar is not folding back. A very common problem.

    Close the top, then when you open the top back up make sure the middle bar folds back.

    Report back.
     
  4. tmvatlanta

    tmvatlanta Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2017
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    Covington GA
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    Tam V.
    #4 tmvatlanta, Nov 14, 2017
    Subscribed as the cover doesn’t fit flush with the top stoved on my Spider


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  5. derekmines

    derekmines Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2013
    284
    Melksham, UK
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    Derek
    #5 derekmines, Nov 15, 2017
    As per post #3
    I have this regularly on my 360, in fact it's in the shop at the moment to have the elastics tightened.

    Easy way to test it, from closed, operate the roof whilst sat in the driver's seat.
    As the roof above you starts to lift, raise your arm above your head and touch the headlining (it's fine to pause the operation for a moment at this point)
    You'll feel a metal bar (quite wide) running across the width of the car
    with your hand, push that bar backwards whilst exerting slight upward pressure on it
    if the issue is elastics, you'll feel it move by about 1/2" - 1"
    continue to operate the roof

    On my car, because my rear screen is new, the plastic is really stiff - I then have to pause the operation, get out of the car and gently press down on the folded cover so that it seats correctly in the storage well.

    Having done all that, the top cover then closes perfectly (apart from the odd time when it decides that it doesn't want to close - I swear this car has a personality all of its own lol
     
  6. ScottDav

    ScottDav Rookie

    Aug 2, 2013
    7
    #6 ScottDav, Nov 16, 2017
    Thank you everyone.
    Derekmines, When I had no luck and then took it to the dealer my mechanic told me he new what it was. He mentioned just as you did
    and I remember reading this some time ago. Since my top does lower far enough to depress the micro switch wouldn't that be sufficient
    for the top to continue it's lowering cycle? My mechanic did mention the elastic and said he felt that wasn't my problem. When I return to
    the dealer I will try your procedure myself and hope for the best. Meanwhile he already swapped my electronic control unit with another
    360 still no good but mine in the other car worked. Right now we're looking into a possible wiring problem since the canvas is all the way
    down and micro switch should be telling the ECU that that part of the cycle is complete but is not sending voltage to the solenoid to lower
    the cover. Thank you all Scott
     
  7. ScottDav

    ScottDav Rookie

    Aug 2, 2013
    7
    #7 ScottDav, Nov 16, 2017
    Battery was recently replaced and the problem continues with or without the engine running.
     
  8. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    #8 mello, Nov 16, 2017
    Does the plastic window bows outward when top is opening? It should and by design, allows additional space to stow the entire top assembly.
     
  9. derekmines

    derekmines Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2013
    284
    Melksham, UK
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    Derek
    #9 derekmines, Nov 17, 2017
    Scott... whilst the lower edge of your roof may well go far enough into the well to trip that microswitch, if the upper part of the roof hasn't folded tightly enough (see Mello's comment above, I have this exact issue at the moment because my screen is new and it's cold in the UK so the plastic isn't so pliable) then you'll never complete the operation....

    You can test this by allowing the roof to open as far as you can get it, then (assuming it's almost completely sat in the storage well) press down on the centre of the roof bar (it sits just forward of the glass engine cover) if you can press it down but it springs back up when you release the pressure then it's likely your issue is either exactly what Mello has noted or very similar to it.

    Best of luck
     
  10. ScottDav

    ScottDav Rookie

    Aug 2, 2013
    7
    #10 ScottDav, Nov 17, 2017
    derekmines, Thank you very much for your help, I understand that the top cannot lower completely if the canvas is not folding properly and that the cover would
    hit the canvas and stop. That is not my problem. I look at the ECU as a flow chart and each operation must be completed before the next operation can continue. My canvas is going all the way down as it has alway done I can even push on it and it will not go any further and my mechanic has verifyed it is
    not the elastic. At this point the down cycle stops and the cover never moved, it stays perfectly straight up. The canvas is down, the micro switch is depressed
    and has been verified that it is working by me and my mechanic. I don't understand how the ECU would stop the operation of lowering the top because the
    canvas is possibly not folded properly. If the canvas goes down and contacts the micro switch shouldn't the next operation be for the top to begin lowering the
    cover no mater how the canvas is folded. The cover does not move an inch, it is not hitting the canvas. I will try your suggestion again but the Electronic control
    unit can not see if the canvas is folded properly it only knows that the micro switch has been contacted and should continue it's cycle by lowering the painted
    cover but it doesn't move at all, the cover is no where near the folded canvas, it's straight up. I think the problem is electrical. Thank you again Scott
     
  11. Drestless

    Drestless Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2014
    1,251
    Riverside, CA
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    Jam
    #11 Drestless, Nov 17, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
    Canvas not folding properly should not cause any tops to stop the stages of operation. Cylinders, micro-switches and ECU does. Same concept for majority of top operations even with Ferraris.

    My SL600 had a similar issue where it won't complete the operation as well. I was quoted $5000 for the work because they said they have to tare down the whole top to find the culprit since the micro-switches are depressing as it should, the cylinders have proper pressure and the ECU does work on another SL600. I fixed mine myself after pulling every wire close to the micro-switch responsible for completing the specific top Stage operation. I pulled them and it gave-in, then it exposed the issue. The wire to and from the micro-switch hidden behind the top cover is crimped which pulled away when I applied just enough force to it. I fixed the wire, and now the signal from the micro-switch is making it to the ECU which then let's the next Stage of the top operation to start.

    Regarding your comment that the micro-switch is ok, it could be working but the wire to the ECU maybe crimped somewhere; hence, it's not giving the green light for the next stage to go. Check if the micro-switch signals is making it to the ECU utilizing a voltmeter. Check the wires with a voltmeter close to the micro-switch and verify if the signal is ok. I think this is what your referring to when you said you checked the micro-switch and it's working but it does not end there. Now, check the wires from this micro-switch CLOSE to the ECU harness with a voltmeter. If it's not registering the depress operation from close to the ECU but is registering it to the wire close to the micro-switch then you have a wire crimp somewhere that's grounding the signal and causing it not to complete the top operation. Find the crimp by trying to pull the wire a bit, it shouldn't just give-in.
     
  12. ScottDav

    ScottDav Rookie

    Aug 2, 2013
    7
    #12 ScottDav, Nov 17, 2017
    Drestless Thank you for the follow up, we are now on the same page. In my original post I didn't elaborate due to the complexity of the problem. I failed to
    mention that after I disconnected the micro switch at the first connection and found it to be working. I then replaced the connector and traced the wire to the
    large multi pin connector on the ECU and again checked for continuity, again all was well. That's the point at which I took it to the service dept. So my 360 is
    not with me for further testing. I'm going to assume that the ECU has two Logic boards inside, one for the up cycle and one for the down cycle.Remember my
    top goes up just fine and part of the up cycle is the painted cover lowering and the canvas dropping down on top to finish the cycle. I've already proven that the
    ECU is working by putting it in another car. Now I need to trace wires from the ECU to the solenoid on the hydraulic pump fixture. At this point I don't know if the
    up and down cycle uses the same solenoid to lower the cover. If there are two logic boards one for up and one down and use the same solenoid, and the solenoid only has one power wire, where do the two ECU wires join to send current to the solenoid. It's just a matter of spending time tracing the wires. I'm
    pretty good at this after all I'm a licensed aircraft mechanic and Ham radio operator and we like to fuss with these types of things. This type of top problem is
    more complicated then the standard problems but I'm sure in time I'll find the culprit. Thank for your interest. Scott
     
  13. Drestless

    Drestless Formula 3

    Oct 1, 2014
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    #13 Drestless, Nov 17, 2017
    Got it. You properly checked the continuity of the micro-switch already. Just error to side of caution and just for sanity check, make sure to double triple check the diagram to make sure you checked the proper micro-switch responsible for that particular Stage of the top operation. There's 12 micro-switches responsible for each stage and can easily be confusing. The good thing is none of them are integrated to the hydraulic cylinders.

    If you already did, then time to find the wire crimp somewhere. :)
     
  14. ScottDav

    ScottDav Rookie

    Aug 2, 2013
    7
    #14 ScottDav, Nov 17, 2017
    If I had the car, at this point I would check continuity on all the solenoids. I wish I had a service manual to let me know which solenoids are involved. Since the cover comes down in both cycles(up and down) I wonder if only one solenoid is used or two. There are quit a few mounted next to the pump. This may come down to a broken wire on the winding of the solenoid, if two are used. My service guy just received the wiring schematic and will call me later today. Stay tuned.
    P.S. I live in New York
     
  15. ScottDav

    ScottDav Rookie

    Aug 2, 2013
    7
    #15 ScottDav, Nov 20, 2017
    Ferrari will be delivering my car back to me UNFIXED. They said the problem is with one of the solenoids on the hydraulic pump assembly. Ferrari does not
    sell the solenoids individually only as a unit and cost $5500 US. I will not be paying that and will take a look at it when I get the car back. Maybe a solenoid
    winding is broken, I've had luck repairing them myself. I understand Ferrari parts can be gotten from other places, I'm not familiar with that and don't know
    who to contact. I guess for now the top stays up. Thank you all for your help. Scott
     
  16. Drestless

    Drestless Formula 3

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    #16 Drestless, Nov 20, 2017
    There's several used pump with solenoids in Ebay for $1,5000 or less with best offer.
     
  17. F-Serge

    F-Serge Formula 3

    Aug 3, 2004
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    #17 F-Serge, Nov 20, 2017
    Try a convertible repair shop, preferably one that specialises in Mercedes soft tops - R129 etc., as 360/430 soft tops and Mercedes soft tops of the same era were most likely supplied by the same company (Hoerbiger comes to mind).
     
    knocker likes this.
  18. knocker

    knocker F1 World Champ

    Jul 10, 2017
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    Adrian
    #18 knocker, Jan 20, 2018
    Hi fellas I’ve just encountered this very issue and don’t know were to start does anyone know where the micro switch for the final part of the top down cycle ie the painted cover lowers and completes top down cycle is located cheers Adrian
     
  19. Massimo Vecchio

    Massimo Vecchio Rookie

    Jun 25, 2015
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    #19 Massimo Vecchio, Sep 10, 2024
    Hi ScottDav did you manage to find out what the issue was,im experiencing the exact same thing and cant find anything wrong yet?.Dont know which of the solenoids do what as i dont have a capote manual.
     
  20. Massimo Vecchio

    Massimo Vecchio Rookie

    Jun 25, 2015
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    #20 Massimo Vecchio, Sep 11, 2024
    Hi ive also been having the same issue the painted cover wont close at the end of the opening cyle,elastics good,microswitches all work,fluid level perfect and soft top tucked in niceley in the tub.I dont know if theres a seperate solenoid for the opening cycle or which ones do what as i dont have a capote manual.ScottDav did you manage to find the culprit?Im at my wits end here.
     
  21. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #21 Qavion, Sep 11, 2024
    Sorry for the blurry image:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    So you've confirmed that the "limit switch softtop open (canvas fully down)" has been triggered?

    The M.DZ solenoid should then be activated to bring the cover down. I guess you could remove the M.DZ solenoid electrical connector (if accessible) and check to see if there is power going to it. See "21Q"

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If no power, there is either a logic (aka switch) issue, ECU issue or solenoid wiring issue. I can give you the ECU pins to help with continuity checks.

    If there is power, then there must be a solenoid issue, hydraulic issue or the top is not folded properly. Is the pump running at this point?
     
  22. Massimo Vecchio

    Massimo Vecchio Rookie

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    #22 Massimo Vecchio, Sep 11, 2024
    Hi Quavion,thanks so much for that info i will check on that.At the point where the cover supposed to come down,the pump is running and the switch triggered for the soft top in the tub,the cover just doesnt move at all but it closes on the end of the closing cycle,thats what i find strange.
     
  23. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #23 Qavion, Sep 11, 2024
    If it's working during roof up, then that means it's not the solenoid or the solenoid wiring. There must be some kind of logic not being satisfied. You may have to go back further into the sequence. Do you have this file?



    Anyway, see if there is a command to the solenoid and work back from there.
     

    Attached Files:

  24. Massimo Vecchio

    Massimo Vecchio Rookie

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    #24 Massimo Vecchio, Sep 11, 2024
    No didnt have this file thank you very much !!I will go through it and do more checks.I will let you know the outcome.Much appreciated Quavion :)
     
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  25. Massimo Vecchio

    Massimo Vecchio Rookie

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    #25 Massimo Vecchio, Sep 12, 2024
    Hi Qavion found the issue..someone had repaired the canvas material and didnt do a good job of re-assembling it.This was causing microswitch E.SD/A to become untriggered just before completely into the tub,hence the rear cover wouldnt complete its stage of closing.Thank you so much for your assistence with this :)
     
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