I am writing this to open a discussion and would value opinions. It seems that most 360's for sale are by dealers. I have checked the usual sources; eBay, Autotrader, Cars, Lemon Free and a few other places and came to that conclusion. Very very few, except here, are by private owners. The real price of Spiders trading hands appears to be in the $70-85K range, dealers add about $10K for doing nothing except having access to capital. Not all dealers of course, some long established and reputable ones like those who post here are the exception. I'm talking about the "South Florida" types. An example would be the 5000 mile spider that allegedly sold for $90K and was immediately re listed - by yet another dealer - for $99K. He is not selling a car, he is selling access to capital, as he added nothing to justify a $9K increase in price. I don't begrudge them for making a living but I have grown attached to my money and have to wonder why I would pay $9K more this week than I would have last week? It's not like it's the only one around if you know what I mean. They built 7500 of them. And face it, not many people can come up with $70K on the spur of the moment for an extra "toy" no matter how desirable and wonderful it may be. Other "dealers" sell financing. They know little about the car and their main market is someone who wants a Ferrari but really cannot afford one but can make some monthly payments before the car gets repossessed - those cars usually suffer from lack of maintenance. They are usually bought by people who want to impress the local cocktail waitresses on a Saturday night, they are not enthusiasts. They think, if at all, Lampredi is some kind of fish. To them a PPI is something they announce they are going to do after drinking a few too many Bud Lights... Both the car and the next owner suffers. I have come to the conclusion, perhaps correctly - perhaps not, that if an end user bought a Spider from a private seller they would expect to pay $70-$85 for an under 10K mile example that has no major issues and good service history. That's from a willing seller and a willing buyer. Not "I need to sell now because my 250 GTO is on the way" or "I need one now for my class reunion next week." I know there are some who would say "I would buy one any day of the week at that price" while others would say "that's too high." I'm talking about someone who is looking and has the cash available NOW to make a decision, not the someone who "would" but the someone who "will." There's a big difference. Again, not meaning to offend anyone, just my observations. I would value any respectful opinions. Thanks Kind Regards, Ron
Hell, you can lease one for $500 a month - with $50,000 down. Or some such nonsense. Some observations - can't call them facts. BTWE - I have a 360 coupe. 1 - there are cars from private sellers. You have to Search for them. 2 - yes most cars are at some sort of dealer, although Ferrari dealers don't seem to sell 360s any more (at least out west). 3 - yes, a car from a dealer is usually more $. More people in the supply chain, means more people taking a taste of the profits. 4 - I find that cars from private parties are generally nicer cars, and cost less to boot. Make a reasonable offer for the car you want and negotiate a compromise price. 5 - 360 prices - both coupe and spyder - have fallen in the past year. Probably because usd 458s are coming available, which probably dropped 430 prices, which in turn dropped 360 prices. 6 - the 360 price drop mentioned above will likely be the last major drop for 360s. By the time the 458 successor arrives, 360s will be too old to be materially affected. 7 - Now is probably a great time to buy a 360. Most of the depreciation has happened and there are still a lot of nice cars available. 5 years from now the pool of nice cars will be less and becoming less every day. That's when prices for nice cars firm and start going up a bit. 8 - Reasonable spyders should be readily available in the $70K - 85K range you mention. However, unless you find a steal, you won't get a prime car (red/tan Daytonas, 2004/2005, under 15,000 miles, no stories, recent belt service, essentially perfect) for that much. Such cars, from my experience, currently sell in the low $90s. This is down from about $105,000 for such a car 2 years ago (this is based on actual purchases by people I know).
So what is the point? I disagree that you can buy a well documented, <10K mile, clean Spider for $70K. At 70K you are more than likely getting more miles and/or deferred maintenance. 80-85 sure. As for the example of dealer paid 90 and relisted for 99. What is the point? You didn't step up at 90 and they did. They chose to move on the car and they believe that they can sell it for more. IF you were a real buyer you would have made the move and not be bemoaning that it is now 99K. The truth is that the price range is extending in both directions. The nice cars are getting more and more scarce and they are commanding premium money. There is still a solid middle ground but that will evaporate as the cars get older. This creates a schism in the pricing structure.
I'd also suggest that dealer cars are going to be subject to price negotiations and that is factored into ask price. If someone offers full list - that is a home run. It's just business transaction to a dealer. Whereas it's harder to negotiate price with a private sale. Owner figures their car is priced right and buyers are sometimes reluctant to insult with a significantly lower offer. The private seller is selling one of their children. Now if it's teenage child, then they may be willing to make a deal.
If I were a real buyer...... I guess if it were the car I was looking for I would have bought it, it wasn't so I didn't. I didn't step up, I stepped away on that car. As I did for many others. That's the point. I'm not bemoaning that someone paid $90K and now want's $99K. He could want $65K or $165K, and it's still not the car I want. You reaffirm my point about offering access to capital. Enough knowledgeable people knew about the car and no one wanted to pay the $90K. So the dealer had access to capital, and that is a valuable commodity in and of itself, and was hoping to make a quick buck. Again, nothing wrong with that, used car dealers need to live and eat too. I was just asking what he was offering -not bemoaning the fact that he bought the car, and it seemed by the other comments at least, that it was only the fact that he did have a line of credit, or the cash, to buy a used car. He didn't do a service, he didn't change this or that, heck, from what I understand he wouldn't even let a PPI be done by an authorized dealer. He bought it from one dealer, allegedly at $90K (who I assumed made a profit on a the trade-in and sale) and offered it at $99K. So assuming the 1st dealers profit margin and the current dealers profit margin that brings the price, for a private enthusiast with the readily available funds for the car he/she wants, down to around $85K give or take IMHO, for a red/tan, low mileage, manual, seats 360 Spider. Kind Regards, R
Its a stupid game. That's all. Sooner or later a dealership ends up with the car that they ask so much money that nobody comes in to look at it. So they keep it on the sales floor and use it to draw in customers to look at the use Mercedes in the showroom. As a seller I wouldn't give a rats about "cash buyers" versus "guys who finance". Some paunchy middle aged guy comes into my dealership claiming he's a cash buyer and can make a decision right now! So? Who ****ing cares. The 30 year old guy who prearranged financing already gave me a deposit and the bank is mailing the check. I sell the car and get the $xxxxx in the bank either which way. In either case the first guy to put down the deposit and secure the car gets it. I.e. the first one the dealer wants to sell it to. $70k "cash in hand" vs. $75k "financed" but I have to wait 48 hrs for the check to arrive.. hmmm who am I going to sell it to? Its a stupid game. Buy from someone else...
It also depends on the year car, type of transmission, what options it has, what upgrades have been done, services performed, etc. etc. I paid high for an 03 Spider that had 10k miles, manual, modular wheels, challenge grills, shields, power Daytona seats, and had added (came with all original parts also) 1200 W stereo boost and new speakers, about every Carbon Fiber piece (well over $10K) available inside and out, 3M protection (on entire front end, windshield, and rear areas), 1 month old full belt and oil service, and brand new Michelins. Car looks new and drives as new, and other than a couple CF pieces being removed i'm not changing a thing... same car with no extras, stock wheels, no recent service, old tires... worth at least $10-$15K less to me.
Don't forget dealers are expected to inspect a car and there is reputations on the line. Dealers are also expected to handle some warranty issues that could arise even if the car is sold "as-is". I just purchased a 2001 360 with 16,400 miles for $74,000 from high end dealer is Dallas - Earth motor cars. A/C worked when we test drove the car. Got it delivered and 90 miles and 3 weeks later a/c stopped. Even though car was sold "as-is"......they are stepping up and helping with costs. Did not have to and I did not ask for help. Stuff happens. That type of service after the sale does not come from a private seller. So a few grand more for a dealer sometimes is not a bad thing.
If you're talking about the red over black 6 speed with the large racing seats in Ohio, you're right. I'd buy the car TODAY, but the douchbag sm wouldn't cooperate with flat bedding the car to the nearest Ferrari dealer AT MY EXPENSE, PREPAID. The SM Jaison acted like a total dickhead. Mike
Very valid point. Good dealers will take care of their customers the best they can, good dealers will have a car that has already been inspected and smogged, and good dealers will be transparent about the deficiencies of what your buying.
He wouldn't allow a PPI at a Ferrari dealer or at least suggest an independent alternate (if he had a problem with the dealer for some reason), walk away. Fast.
I can see why the dealer would rather wholesale the car. First, he doesn't sell Ferrari's. 2nd, he's got a dealer willing to stroke a check for prob what you're willing to pay and he doesn't have to deal with anythig else. There's two sides to every story. When I buy a car or anything I always treat people with respect and if it doesn't work out then so be it, It wasn't meant to be. Calling names is just plain childish.
Damn that sucks. I have to drive both to see which Fcar I like better. In California traffic going fast is not as important but handling and low end torque are.
In general I agree, however in this case, I very clearly and in no uncertain terms told him ( within the first 2 minutes or so of our initial phone conversation) that I would need a PPI by a qualified Ferrari shop prior to making an offer- he was fine with it ( then ). I, too, treat people with respect when dealing with them. I respect their time, I do what I say I'm going to do, I try to convey my gratitude that they've offered me a shot at their business and their dollars, and if I tell them something early on in the deal, I don't change in the middle of it. The SM did none of those- I stand by my statement- he's a ******. Mike P.S. since you are (apparently) in possession of some sort of magical machine that enables you to know the unknowable ( 'probably what I'm willing to pay') would you mind sharing next week's Powerball winning numbers with your fellow Fchatters ? I'd certainly be willing to cut you in for a healthy percentage of my winnings.
Continuing to call a sales manager names on a public forum and making sarcastic references to another poster here (the powerball comment) is not showing respect. He's right, most dealers that have an opportunity to wholesale a relatively complicated car that they are not familiar with for the same or even a little less money will go that direction. Franchise stores are under a lot of pressure to keep a certain level of CSI (customer service index) and selling a used Ferrari at a Chevy store is a risky proposition. The wholesale route allowed them to liquify the trade with no risk of an issue with the car or the customer they would have retailed it to. None of this of course is any justification for anyone at the store to be rude to you, no more than them being rude to you is a justification to call them names on a public forum.
