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360 Stradale Carbon Brakes

Discussion in '360/430' started by thomas_b, Nov 28, 2003.

  1. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    it is raining - did study the carbon brakes - took a few picture - enjoy

    Picture 1
     
  2. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Picture 2
     
  3. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Picture 3
     
  4. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Picture 4
     
  5. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Picture 5
     
  6. GWat

    GWat Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    251
    USA
    Thanks for the pics. How do you like them? Is there a big difference from iron when they are first applied when cold? Are you concerned with cost of replacing them in the future and their durability?
     
  7. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    I have finished the brake-in period today and have now 700+miles on the car

    I must confess that I did get nervous about the brake around 500miles – I expected them to perform much better at that point – break pedal travel is a little bit more than my Modena and I had to get used to it – response was not as instantaneous

    The past few days it rained a lot and the roads have been constantly wet – I had a hard time to get heat into the breaks and tires – but today it did come together.

    The best way I can describe how the brake stopping power feels now is as follows: think about two rough metal surfaces been grinded together with high force while they rotate against each other. Declaration is instantaneous and you are pushed forward into the seatbelts if you want or not; because of the missing damping that is also the sound you experience.

    Consider this a first impression – I just today had the engine up to 8.5K rpm, had the exhaust opened up, got the brakes working, and pushed the car for the first time
     
  8. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Do we have any wear reports yet?

    Pete
     
  9. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
    London
    I had a ride in a stradale on a track in France and was blown away by the brakes.

    Assuming 19" inch wheels, does anyone have quotes for fitting of brakes. Authorised Ferrari dealers are quoting £15k!!
     
  10. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Some pictures of the break system of my new stradale and a comparison with the old one - note the difference in how the carbon disk is mounted
     
  11. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,691
    SE England Yorkie
    Full Name:
    Andy
    Is there a pattern to the drillings on the disks? They look very random.

    Also, I wonder what purpose they serve? The discs are vented to aid cooling and, producing less or no dust, I wonder how much the pads need "cleaning" as the disc goes round (grooves being better for this purpose I believe anyway).

    Wonder if it's cosmetic...

    Massive brakes though. Be interesting to see how they cope on track with hard use.
     
  12. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765

    Good catch – I never looked at the pattern – it is not random but appears pretty complicated especially since it follows the round shape of the disk – not sure what the reason is for the pattern – structural integrity?


    The holes (or for the same purpose slots) are there to basically keep the break disk surface clean – nothing to do with cooling - holes are better since they are self-cleaning

    When the break pads are applied to the surface the heat creates gas and at the same time debris might be caught in-between – the holes do clean this away. The gas and debris obviously would reduce the efficiency of the break.

    There is only little data about how the carbon disk wear – my observation is that there is no break dust at all - Wazza had a different observation when he tracked his CS – a French guy had the most detailed feedback – one disk set in the rear because of ASR & Race on and sliding the car; he tracked his car a lot
     
  13. murph7355

    murph7355 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2002
    1,691
    SE England Yorkie
    Full Name:
    Andy
    Funnily enough I can spot a pattern on the old type discs, but not the new ones. Pretty complex.

    Note that holes don't necessarily self clean. Brake dust can get clogged in the holes, and the result is potentially worse than a normal disk as you have uneven properties across the disk.

    That said, with no or little dust being generated I'm surprised they felt the need.

    Also, with some of the holes being closer together than others, I would have thought that the possibility of cracks between them would increase.

    I think F1 discs are grooved...

    I'm off to lie down now as I'm getting very sad!
     
  14. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    If there is no brake dust then this would tend to indicate that nothing much is being worn away or if it is it being turned into very fine power or gas.
     
  15. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    During braking itself, you build up a layer of gas and dust that the holes or slots help purge during braking. The use of holes rather than slots may be due to structural integrity issues with the carbon-ceramic material.

    Even if the carbon brakes produce much less dust, they may produce just as much or even more gassing... not sure.
     
  16. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,351
    The word is Ceramic not Carbon.
     
  17. 4RE Bob

    4RE Bob Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2004
    567
    Muskoka, Ontario
    Full Name:
    Bob
    Actually, according to Ferrari's web site:
    The braking system on the Challenge Stradale comprises carbon-ceramic (CCM, Carbon Composite Material) discs: the result of highly advanced studies conducted by Ferrari in conjunction with Brembo, the supplier of this system.
    Dimensions of the brake discs are as follows: front: 380 mm diameter x 34 mm thickness, and a differentiated-diameter, 6-piston calliper; rear: 350 mm diameter x 34 m thickness; and a differentiated-diameter, 4-piston calliper The carbon-ceramic system installed on the Challenge Stradale, together with the aluminium brake carriers, makes for astounding performance and braking distance.
    In terms of weight, the reduction achieved for the Challenge Stradale is 16% when compared with conventional brake discs.
    Overall deceleration rates for the Challenge Stradale are 15% better than for the 360 Modena.
     
  18. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    Interesting, my rotors look like those in the red caliper photo, down to the hand drawn blue and yellow marks on either side of each fastener.

    I predict that someone will make money selling brake conversion kits for the Stradale - to convert the cars to conventional non-ceramic brakes.

    Will
     
  19. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ

    Aug 3, 2002
    40,617
    California
    Full Name:
    Carbon McCoy
    i have a book at home about the NNO and the refer to the brakes as "carbo-ceramic"... At first i thought it was a typo, but they repeatedly referred to them that way...
     
  20. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765

    why would you?

    on the road I don't think you can beat the wear pattern of the carbon disks

    on the track you have to switch ASR off (or stop triggering traction control) and avoid to engage ABS

    most of the negative information comes from P cars and there it can be traced to the aggressive pad material they used which was unsuitable for track use


    regarding break dust - it also could be blown away the Stradale wheels stay exceptionally clean
     
  21. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    "why would you?"

    I hope I am wrong! I'd like to track the car, and drive it hard while doing so; I assume that track use will greatly shorten rotor life - could be a rather expensive replacement to undertake annually or worse, from what I've heard.
     
  22. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    The brakes were designed to give no fade, something you want for track use. With the number of cars being produced and with the road wear certainly seeming to be ok why would somebody try to make an aftermarket part. If they did numbers made would be so low they would probably cost a fortune too.
     
  23. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    That's definitely not the way I've read the threads. There are some very knowledgeable Porsche track guys who are paying big bucks to convert their GT2's and GT3's to steel brakes. I don't think you'd see that happening if the problem was simply pad choice. I do think there is every reason to believe the Ferrari product (carbon-ceramics) differs significantly from the Porsche solution, and will be a superior solution. The feeling on the P-car boards is that Porsche was sold a poor product by their supplier, but of course the real victims are the owners, since Porsche is not covering any of this under warranty.

    Gary
     
  24. 720

    720 F1 Rookie

    Jul 14, 2003
    2,623
    So. Cal and No. Utah
    Full Name:
    Rick
    i'd heard others in the past mention that they could hear the sound of the brake pads rubbing against the rotors...like a muffled grinding sound. they emphasized that it was not too noticeable, but they could hear it. i now have 1300 miles on my stradale, and i don't notice any unusual brake sounds at all (and my hearing is normal...as far as i know :)

    i am also surprised by your description of the the braking as being "instantaneous and you are pushed forward into the seatbelts if you want to or not". my experience is that i am easily able to modulate the amount of brake pressure i apply. i am able to stop smoothly or very abruptly or any where in between. btw, i received my CS in february. i checked the brakes and they look to be the same as the pictures you posted from your new stradale.

    i'd be interested to hear other comments/observations from other stradale owners on this topic. all of the miles i've put on so far are street miles and relatively normal brake usage. i wonder if the reason my brakes seem to behave differently from thomas' brakes is perhaps mine may not truly be broken in yet? i am very happy with them. they feel really good to me.
     
  25. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877
    I was talking to a mechanic at a Ferrari dealership today and was told the rotor are NOW $8000 a piece...... They were only $7500 a piece. LOL
     

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