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360 Stradale Carbon Brakes

Discussion in '360/430' started by thomas_b, Nov 28, 2003.

  1. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    what I described was brakes / tires up to temperature (hot) and breaks applied to the maximum (ABS not engaged) - I agree the breaks can be easily modulated and work perfect

    suprised that you don't hear the sound; say at low speed; low RPM coming to a stop
     
  2. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    There are multiple developments intermixed:

    1.) quickly worn carbon breaks during street driving / P warranty issue
    (unfortunately I can’t find the pics shwoing Fixedwing’s breaks)
    2.) tracking car with carbon brakes / P stating car not for track use
    (P changed the marketing text for the brakes)
    3.)wear of breaks if tracked / cost

    what I tried to push back on is to apply 1.) & 2.) to the CS – this is simply a P car specific thing – 3.) is in my opinion why people change the break -running cost is too high compared to benefit – but that is my guess – I stopped following the P car discussions

    the carbon breaks (pads & breaks) will wear and it is simply a matter of how fast – replacing the pads or disks will give you a sticker shock but in the end it is simply a question of how often you have to replace pad/disks compared to a conventional setup

    we don’t have enough data to make the call for the CS yet - my take
     
  3. spyderman

    spyderman Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,441
    Toronto - Canada
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    Spyderman
    Thomas,

    Have you given any thought into putting the new car on the dyno to see if there are any changes to the HP/Tor numbers?? Maybe Ferrari has been able to produce some more HP with some further teaking as production has moved along!!
     
  4. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    9,216
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    Scott
    "brake-in period" = break-in period

    "breaks" as in those things that stop the car = brakes

    I wouldn't want anything on my car that would "break" it.
     
  5. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    "we don’t have enough data to make the call for the CS yet - my take"

    Agree. My guess is that, at $7500 per rotor, switching to conventional rotors will be cheaper than regularly replacing ceramics. Perhaps the Ferrari ceramics will last an extraordinarily long time in track use - we'll see. I'm looking for track events once I complete the break-in period, and plan to document rotor wear as best I can. Unfortunately, I likely won't track the car much this year.
     
  6. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    I plan to do it once I reach 1000miles - this will be very interesting ....
     
  7. spyderman

    spyderman Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,441
    Toronto - Canada
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    Spyderman

    Thanks Thomas. I can not wait to hear about the results of your dyno!! :)

    By the way: Does the new car feel any diffrent from the first Stradale you had? Any quicker, sharper, noisier etc... thanks again for your valuable information!!
     
  8. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    rear CS brake
     
  9. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,330
    SF, Bay Area
    I saw an article in Prancing Horse #150, First Quarter 2004, "how to get an enzo", pp.28-30. And in the last paragraph they mention, within a month they had put 1200 miles on the car (track and otherwise road driving, of which 350 miles was at Sebring and VIR) and they had gone through $4,000 worth of pads and $24,000 worth of rotors. If the breaks on Enzo is similar to CS one should expect about the same wear and tear on the breaks. I thought it was interesting to note!

    Matt
     
  10. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Enzo is heavier than CS - we have already several CS owners well beyond above road/track mileages without any pad/rotors changes - key is to have ASR off and stay away from ABS engagement during track driving
     
  11. Jack(LA)

    Jack(LA) Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2003
    754
    Los Angeles
    Thomas: I noticed the wheel guides in your rear brake photos -- could you tell me where I can purchase them? TIA.
     
  12. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765

    Sure – especially since they are made by Paul Hill a sponsor of this site – he does cool work – I would actually recommend to go with the version without the pattern at the end (Without Knurl)

    http://www.customferrariparts.com/homemainferrari.htm

    Note that the P GT2 comes with such hangers in the tool kit - there is a complete chapter with a warning about not to hit the carbon disk with the wheel during removal – that was the reason I bought them – besides that the contact patch between wheel and hub is a sensitive area – the surface is stressed by micro movements and if worn requires you to change the wheel – I rather don’t want to scratch it

    I wish the hangers would fit into the toolset box – well you can not have everything :)
     
  13. Jack(LA)

    Jack(LA) Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2003
    754
    Los Angeles
    Yes, I know -- My GT2 is keeping me company until the Stradale shows up -- it's waiting for a boat ride! :) Thanks for the info.
     
  14. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    lucky you - the CS is a blast – would be interested in a GT2 vs. CS comparison if you have time to write something - thomas
     
  15. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
    London
    I sat in an Enzo and a Stradale on a recent track day. After cleaning my boxer shorts thoroughly I can confirm that compared to my spider the carbon brakes and low profile rubber defnitely gave a better bite in braking. As for noise there was a slight grating feeling/noise - correctly described in Autocar as the same as keys being cut.

    Since that day I have fitted another pair of boxers and a set of stradale wheels/tyres to my spider. I haven't been back on a track but on the road I would estimate I get 75% of the additional bite.

    Verdi's are chasing Brembo UK to put together a kit with the same size calipers/discs pads as the Stradale but with steel rotors. That should get another 5 - 10% of the bite but avoid all the supposed problems. The downside is that it may suffer from more fade than the £20k CCM kit.
     
  16. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
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    Dec 23, 2002
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  17. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    Interesting article. Here we seem to fail to recognise that the Carbon Ceramin brakes used by Ferrari are not the same material as the Porsche brakes and they are not on the same car and do not have the same calipers or pads so all of this may be very much an issue for Porsche
     
  18. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
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    Dec 23, 2002
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    Robin,
    i didn't realize that.Do Ferrari not have carbon /ceramic brakes on the CS?
     
  19. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    "Do Ferrari not have carbon /ceramic brakes on the CS?"

    The CS and Enzo have carbon ceramic brakes. I think Robin's point is that it's a mistake to conclude from issues with Porsche PCCB that Ferraris ceramics will have similar problems. I have a large personal investment in Robin's optimism ....
     
  20. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
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    Will/Robin,
    believe me, i hope the Ferrari brakes hold up better than Porsche's at £27k for a new set .This wasn't an attempt to wind you up with a tale of doom.
     
  21. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    No wind up Tony, I'm aware of the long going issue about Porsche brakes and concerns that Ferrari will have the same problem. As yet I am not concerned as the indications are that the problem Porsche have experienced is real and exists while Ferrari have had some reports and rumors. This difference alone makes me think that Ferrari (and yes the CS has Carbon/Ceramics) will not experience the same problems Porsche have. I'm sure there will be issues with Ferraris brakes in the same way that all cars can have problems but I am not worried that Ferrari's will have the same problems that Porsche have had, not least because Ferrari do not use Porsche brakes
     
  22. 4i2fly

    4i2fly Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2004
    1,330
    SF, Bay Area
    I was a tech session at FoSF and FNA's product specialist was talking about CS' breaks and he was suggesting they would experience very little or no wear (I don't recall the exact number, but something like 0.005" wear on the rotor would take years). That seems strange, but you can't really argue with a product specialist, especially since there are no data on the life of those breaks. I sighted an article in Prancing Horse (Q1’04) that basically, an Enzo in its first few hundred miles on the track had gone through a set of pads and rotors.
     
  23. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,270
    Switzerland (NW)
    Sounds like we're heading towards interesting warranty coverage tales by the end of the year. I don't wish CS owners anything bad, but between tales of Enzos ruining their rotors fast, and the problems Porsche encountered, one may wonder if the technology is ready for 'consumer prime time', assuming that CS owners can be considered as "consumers" ;-)
     
  24. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    AFAIK, that's singular... just one such tale. It came early on, so it was quite worrisome. But one tale, does not a story make. <fingers crossed> But as was already stated, many of us have a lot invested in these brakes holding up well.
     
  25. bumboola

    bumboola Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2003
    625
    The Enzo has 660 HP and would be braking from much higher speeds down the straights than a Stradale would. That particular Enzo was an early production model driven extremely hard on the track - the pads may have worn down without the owner realizing it and in turn destroyed the rotors or, the driver pulled in to the pits immediately after hard driving instead of taking some cool down laps. Who knows? I think some of the lessons learned on the Enzo resulted in modifications to the CC brakes on the initial batch of Stradales, and the brakes have already been modified from the early production version. Most of the reports on tracked Stradales have been quite good in fact.

    I'm not worried.
     

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