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360 Stradale Carbon Brakes

Discussion in '360/430' started by thomas_b, Nov 28, 2003.

  1. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    got my CS back from 5K service + brake/gearbox fluid change today

    miles: 4676
    usage: 10% city, 10% highway, 60% rural roads, 20% track
    brake pad level remaining: front 11mm/90+%, rear 10mm/90+%
    tires: front 5mm (right front shot), rear 4.5mm (holding up well)

    brake disks are perfect, pads looking good, tires are a pain
     
  2. 720

    720 F1 Rookie

    Jul 14, 2003
    2,623
    So. Cal and No. Utah
    Full Name:
    Rick
    about a month ago brian (blc138) sent a PM about his stradale track day at magy-cours. excerpt from brian's post:

    "The F3000 guy has a Stradale and the price that he's been quoted for rotor+pad replacement is a shade under US$30k! Ferrari have said that they have tracked Stradales to 40,000km and not needed to change the rotors. I hope they're right..."
     
  3. xpresso

    xpresso Karting

    May 9, 2004
    110
    Paradise Valley, AZ
    Did you try to reduce your brake wear by down-shifting before coming to a stop?

    I commend you for keeping your RPM under 8.5k...I know my dealer told me the same thing but it is damn hard to do.

    I just picked up my CS at the end of April and so far I have been "babying" it as much as possible but it is oh so hard not to slam my right foot down while it is in the race mode...

    My only therapy is a GT3 that I just got...this is my second P car and each time they tell me that there is no "break-in" period...I did not get the fancy rotors with this car and instead have steel rotor...I think it works pretty well.

    HT
     
  4. xpresso

    xpresso Karting

    May 9, 2004
    110
    Paradise Valley, AZ
    I was told by my dealership in Scottsdale that the service for all 4 rotors may add up to $10K US. I did hear some people shipping their cars to Los Angeles where it maybe about $3K cheaper.
     
  5. watt

    watt Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
    1,312
    Way Back In, NZ
    Full Name:
    Giuseppe T Hemingway
    i owned 3 GT2's and 1 GT3 with PCCB and had cumulative 20k miles + happy motoring including track days and heavy sustained mountain and high speed braking [say 10 k miles].

    1] very few PCCB problems actually occurred in Porsches but every one screamed aloud on the web, giving a false picture of the size of the problem. This has led to herd mentality and hysteria and some number of brake conversions.

    2] if you keep your rotor holes blown clean and bed your pads properly and threshold brake [use no ABS], porsche PCCB work fine, altho' they have lasted "only" 20,000 track miles on the most tracked car.

    3] the factory indeed covered problems for responsible owners. they did not for a few others

    i will be very interested in the durability and performance of my Stradale brakes and shall try to provide a direct comparison with Porsche, but my experience w/ Porsche PCCB obviously did not shy me off a CS.
     
  6. watt

    watt Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
    1,312
    Way Back In, NZ
    Full Name:
    Giuseppe T Hemingway
    are there first hand reported problems with CS brakes to date?
     
  7. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    From Evo magazine...

    Porsche Brake Problems


    Porsche enthusiasts are embroiled in a building row over the longevity of the company's hi-tech and extremely costly Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB) technology. The ceramic discs were claimed in Porsche's original literature to be 'the most effective braking system ever featured on a production Porsche'.

    Launched on the 911 GT2, the company said the cross-drilled and ventilated discs were '50 per cent lighter than conventional alternatives' and combined with 'an innovative new composite brake pad... temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance'. Most amazingly, Porsche's own literature claimed that each disc would offer 'a service life of approximately 300,000km (186,000 miles)'.

    However, many Porsche owners - who either bought GT2s or paid the £6000 option price to have the PCCB system fitted to a GT3 - are finding that the discs and pads don't last anything like as long. Trackday drivers are finding that hard use can lead to extensive cracking of the discs and the need for replacement. Replacing four PCCB discs and pads costs over £27,000. A figure that has shocked owners who have been affected. GT3 owners at least have the option of swapping back to conventional steel discs.

    Owners and Porsche specialists are trying to pin down the reason for the problem, and most agree that excessive heat is the main cause, although some are also blaming gravel damage from trackside excursions.

    The general consensus of opinion is that the nose design of the 996-series 911 does not draw enough cooling air onto the front brake discs. Porsche specialists are devising fixes for the problem, including altering the angle of the nose-mounted radiators to allow more air into the wheel wells. Special ducting is also being designed by specialists to channel more air to the discs.

    For its part, Porsche has now changed the wording of its literature, warning brake components must be checked and, if necessary, replaced after track driving. Some dealers have replaced discs under warranty, but others are now not changing cracked discs until the fissures are relatively extensive.

    The same problems have already been encountered in the US, according to Steve Wiener, of Porsche specialist Rennsport Systems, with some PCCB discs cracking badly enough to physically fall apart. However, he told evo that failures are not consistent and much depends on the individual driver.

    'The problems are caused by heat, but each driver is different and some are harder on the brakes than others. Professional drivers are unlikely to cause a temperature 'spike' when driving hard.' Wiener ruled out gravel-trap damage as US circuits generally don't use it. 'We are switching back to iron Brembo or Alcon discs and advising owners of PCCB-equipped cars to take the discs off and store them for when the car is eventually sold.'

    A Porsche UK spokesman said that while there had been PCCB failures, these were all attributable to 'significant overheating' of the brakes. 'While the ceramic discs can take much higher temperatures than steel, they are not indestructible. We are also quite happy with the amount of brake cooling that the 996 provides for its front brakes.'

    A number of 911 drivers have also told evo that they no longer place high value on the braking abilities of PCCB. The hot word is that PCCB are not felt to brake better than steel discs using Pagid yellow sport pads, which are Porsche's factory standard. Other owners are now saying that PCCB are actually less effective on the track than steel discs with Pagid orange pads (designed for 24-hour endurance racing).

    The truth is, with the composite discs so phenomenally expensive, few enthusiast drivers can currently risk this hi-tech option.
     
  8. watt

    watt Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
    1,312
    Way Back In, NZ
    Full Name:
    Giuseppe T Hemingway
    well of aware of this Gary,

    but my experience and PCNA data does not match the hype!!! the EVO article on CS brakes is on their PC screen today, same words, ready for a fall issue???

    Porsche did indeed change the wording in their lit., and is backing away from all track use in their warranties while continuing to use track imagery and usage in their marketing -- a dispicable end to a great sports car line, but driven by greed for survival and profits not just brake issues. Indeed, Porsche is upping the commitment to PCCB with the 997's.

    yes, larger brake ducts for heavy trackers does help. and while i think the PCCB are fine, I decided not to track my last GT2, and specifically bought steel in my last GT3.... so i hedged my bets, even tho' i am positive PCNA wouldv'e covered any problems i had under warrantee, based on years of positive experience... i am also sure that the hype is hurting resale, which makes for great buying opportunities in PCCB GT3's and 2's.

    Does Ferrari cover track usage?
     
  9. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    I don't know for sure, Watt, but Ferrari of San Francisco hosts two track events per year, and they are factory-owned, so I would be very disappointed to find out they did not.

    As to Porsche PCCB's, I have no personal experience, but based on everything I have read, if I ever bought a GT3 (and that's not impossible) it would have steel brakes! The reports on the CS guys from the track seem to be pretty good, no horror stories yet.

    Gary
     

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