360 timing question | FerrariChat

360 timing question

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by MD355, Feb 26, 2017.

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  1. MD355

    MD355 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    802
    Athens, Greece
    Full Name:
    MD
    After carefully reading the WSM , i have a question regarding the timing : intake valves open at 10 degree before TDC and exhaust valves close at 9 degrees after TDC. When you time the intake valves you reset dial gauge at TDC of compression cycle and 360 degrees later you measure 0.60mm at side intake valves. For exhaust why would you reset at 9 degrees before TDC and measure 1.66mm when you pass TDC ?? Shouldn't you reset dial gauge at TDC and measure how much the needle moves until the valve closes at 9 degrees after TDC ?
     
  2. MD355

    MD355 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    802
    Athens, Greece
    Full Name:
    MD
    What is the significance of 9 degrees before TDC for exhaust valves ? (Remember intake valves start at 10 degrees before TDC)
     
  3. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,987
    Isle of man- uk
    What are you using to find tdc ? How ru doing it
     
  4. MD355

    MD355 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    802
    Athens, Greece
    Full Name:
    MD
    Well, you put the dial gauge in the spark plug hole and watch how the needle moves. The moment the needle stops moving in positive direction and starts to move in negative direction, you set find by approximation the TDC and set the degree wheel. Next you pick two arbitrary points (3mm before and 3mm after TDC) and measure the degrees. If they match, then you are ok. If one is lets say 17 degres and the other is 16, you move the degree wheel needle half a degree so that you have 16.5 anc 16.5
     
  5. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,987
    Isle of man- uk
    I throught you might be doing that- not a very accurate way as the piston stops as the small end goes over tdc, spliting the difference is a bit iffy.
    I do timing on big diesels and you are better putting the piston to its max height and move clock down so it reads plus 4mms at that point. Turn crank in direction of rotation until you get to minus 2mms, mark the position of crank, keep going to tdc and it will read plus 4mms, keep going till it drops again to plus 2 mms.
    You now have 2 crank positions- split the difference and you will have tdc. Always turn crank in direction of rotation, if you go past the point you need to do the full circuits to come back on yourself. Dont reverse the rotation as you will pick up backlash.
    What you are doing is a slightly less accurate version of my way
     
  6. MD355

    MD355 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    802
    Athens, Greece
    Full Name:
    MD
    Just to clarify my question : If you are doing overlap for setting the timing on the 360 (intake opens at 10 degrees BTDC and exhaust closes at 9 degrees ATDC) why would you reset the dial gauge on the exhaust valve at 9 degrees instead of 10 degrees BTDC ?? (You want the exact moment the intake opens to reset dial gauge for exhaust) Could you possibly fix timing without degree wheel just with dial gauge on intake valve to exact moment it opens ??!!!
     
  7. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,987
    Isle of man- uk
    Not sure on that one, timing i have seen relies on a set number of mm opening at a specific crank position. This is much better way as you are not waiting for the clock to just start to move after it has taken up the tappet clearence, oil film etc
     
  8. MD355

    MD355 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    802
    Athens, Greece
    Full Name:
    MD
    Ok, so let then clarify something else...

    -For intake, you reset dial gauge on TDC of combustion cycle and rotate 360 degrees crankshaft to measure 1.66 mm at TDC of intake cycle.

    -For exhaust, you reset dial gauge at 9 degrees prior to TDC on exhaust cycle, and measure 0.60 mm when ?? On WSM is says : "Rotate crankshaft further until the dial gauge indicator is stable on value and the bucket proves to rotate freely in its housing."
    From what I understand you pass TDC and continue to rotate further until exhaust valve closes completely. Correct?
     
  9. MD355

    MD355 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    802
    Athens, Greece
    Full Name:
    MD
    Another issue that could be a typo on the WSM for the 360 :

    I was looking into the WSM of the F355 (which is a similar motor as the 360) and it has the following specifications :

    Intake :
    Opens before TDC 16 degrees
    Closes after BDC 42 degrees

    Exhaust :
    Opens before BDC 56 degrees
    Closes after TDC 16 degrees

    The way overlap of the camshafts is done is :
    INTAKE : find TDC in compression cycle, reset counter for dial indicator, rotate crank 360 degrees and measure 2.41mm at TDC for intake side valves.
    EXHAUST : find TDC in exhaust/intake cycle, reset counter for dial indicator, rotate crank until buckets rotate freely (valves have closed) and measure 2.29mm

    For the Ferrari 360 Modena :

    Intake :
    Opens before TDC 10 degrees
    Closes after BDC 50 degrees

    Exhaust :
    Opens before BDC 76 degrees
    Closes after TDC 9 degrees

    The way overlap of the camshafts is done is :
    INTAKE : find TDC in compression cycle, reset counter for dial indicator, rotate crank 360 degrees and measure 1.66mm at TDC for intake side valves.
    EXHAUST : FIND 9 DEGREES BEFORE TDC IN EXHAUST/INTAKE, RESET COUNTER FOR DIAL INDICATOR, ROTATE CRANK UNTIL BUCKETS ROTATE FREELY AND MEASURE 0.60mm

    -------------

    BOLD text above is the weird part of timing...

    Please note that in the 360 Modena the way you measure Exhaust Valve opening is counter-intuitive !!! Why reset at 9 degrees BTDC and not at TDC ?????? Did Ferrari mean to measure 9 degrees before the Exhaust valves close (which in effect is TDC, because exhaust valves close at 9 degrees ATDC ???)

    Thanks ! I think I beat this issue to death, but it is because my car feels strange even after I did overlap exactly as WSM !!! Help?
     

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