Long story short, we blew up our engine and currently looking for alternatives. TODA racing seems to have a kit at a reasonable price that can use the current engine as a donor. Tried the search in the forum, but toda seems to also be a spanish word and the results are quite dissapointing. So, anyone that can give some solid advice regarding this conversion, pretty please share with us. At the moment the car is at the shop getting stripped and prepared just for track, so we have more than 3 weeks time to establish an opinion about this solution. Pics and details of the jobs done (cage, seats, brakes, etc) will follow shortly, as soon as my son does the transfer thing to the application that does whatever it does and publishes them. Thanks in advance.
TODA as in the Japanese company? I know they have an excellent reputation with manufacturing Honda performance parts.... I didn't know they dealt with Ferrari though.
They seem to have quite a bunch of stuff, but only thing is that most of the forums we find about them are Japanese.
If you want the stroker kit and cams, valve springs etc that Toda offer then there are domestic alternatives. For what Toda offers I really don't see it as anything special considering what they want for the stuff. If you want your engine rebuilt as it was before then that can be done easy enough as well. Lots of good builders. What are you looking for?
Google TODA Ferrari and you get tons of hits. Ferrari 360 Engine Power Kits from Toda Racing | Torque Developments Blog
i have to say that I am located in Europe. I am in need of everything except the block and my son and I were thinking about a stroker kit since their prices equal a normal rebuild. We would also like some more grunt as lack of it resulted the blow in the first place. We have quite a competitive attitude so some more hp would surely boost us in front of our heavily modified opponents. Google just provides ads about the product. We would appreciate some "first hand" information in case someone has installed or is familiar with this kit.
TODA makes phenomenal products - incredible quality / workmanship and hours go into designing and creating their pieces. I wouldn't hesitate installing their stroker kit in the 360. Look at their JGTC 360 cars. Fantastic.
What TODA does have to offer is that their parts (for the Ferrari engine) are race tested so the whole thing probably fits/works together pretty damn well...
Toda is a good alternative when money is not a matter. I consider it years a go and I got a former quote from them. I have a spare engine if you wants the heads just let me know. Image Unavailable, Please Login
17k for a crankshaft is a bit steep. Last time I checked, Crower would make any crank you want for a fraction of that, I believe Toda's crank is 85mm stroke which can certainly be done then JE can certainly design appropriate pistons. Additionally, Cat Cams in Belgium make an excellent billet cam profile for the 5 valve head engines. Swapping to solid tappets and uprated valve springs is not a problem either. Such changes would make for a incredible 4L motor.
I'm afraid that I cannot offer any useful advice to our OP MadAboutRed but I'm interested in this topic and hope to follow your rebuild process should you be kind enough to share the journey with us. What I will say is that faced with a similar dilemma I think I'd be inclined to do the same and if I were doing that I think I'd be going about it the same way - seeking out real world experiences rather than marketing hype. Best of luck and please share the journey with us.
Hmm, used 355 motors run 6-8k, solid lifters, new cams, uprated valve springs from those sources would run what, another 6-8k? So $15k for a 10k rpm screamer making what, 450-470hp? Nevermind, stop it, please.
I am quite familiar with TODA as I have owned a couple of race car Civics in the past and still own a Toyota AE86 with a built TODA motor. They are a very good comapny for engine parts, forged pistons, valve springs, cams. cam gears etc... Most of their crate engines are for race use like, Grp. A, Grp. N2 (a Japan series with fully built motors but on the stock block)If I am not mistaken, teh 360 motor is a crate engine as a replacement for Challenge Cup race cars or Gt 350 which are still being used in various Japan race series'
+1 Didn't realize TODA was this expensive. Mix&Match the right parts and you can get this whole kit together for a fraction of the cost. Certainly doable for 25k with the right connections.
Careful guys, TODA is one of the best engine manufacturers and has successfully competed Ferrari engines in Japanese GT series racing for years. Some of the brands mentioned here (that I have also personally used) are more "entry level" in terms of price/quality, and will require at least some degree (possibly a lot) of professional development to enure that a custom produced package yeilds similar performance. It's good to have choices though....
TODA is going to have to do quite a bit of convincing regarding that crankshaft considering they are asking almost the same cost as a Formula 1 crankshaft. Ferrari's stock 360 crankshafts are just jewelry in terms of quality and development and a new OEM crank direct from Ferrari is half of what TODA are asking. I cannot imagine TODA have access to the same equipment Ferrari has in manufacturing crankshafts to tolerances within .0001, and if they do then they are in the wrong business trying to sell a couple stroked 360 cranks per year. Crower's cranks are not to the level of Ferrari's cranks, but whose are? No one's. As for TODA pistons, I can't imagine who they would be using to develop their pistons, Mahle/JE/Wiseco are the last word in pistons IMO. I've worked (or tried is probably a better word) with Wossner and to put it nicely, they are difficult and their quality is not to the level of Mahle or JE. Between these three, there is no racing venue they don't compete in except for Formula 1 which is pretty much exclusive to Mahle. Steve at Racetep in Hollywood has forgotten more custom Ferrari piston designs then I have ever known, fantastic resource. The two brothers who run Cat Cams in Belgium have the Holy Papal blessing from the most almighty camshaft engineer I've ever known, Dimi Elgin. Cat also runs in numerous rally racing series and has championships under their belts. I guess I don't understand how these guys are entry level unless you mean if it's not developed to the extent of Formula 1 parts. You're absolutely right though, it's good to have alternates. It seems to me TODA are just tacking on a Ferrari tax which I can partially understand from an r&d perspective. I've had my hands dirty in the development of stuff like this and I know what it's like to try and keep such information proprietary because it indeed takes a bit of time and effort getting this stuff done so paying a bit extra for this information is reasonable, but not to TODAs extent IMO.
Contacted them and stated my situation. Seems that they need time to answer my questions, regarding waranty, service intervals, race use and support. Spending an amount equal of a second hand 360 for an engine that will last for just a season is not my intention. Will report later when I have news. If I am not satisfied with the answer, I will just rebuild the blown engine, ad some sport stuff and call it a day. From what I see, it's a race spec kit and needs special attention, meaning that it has to travel to Japan for a shiatsu massage and noodle diet. I can think of eleven thousand other ways to spend money on this car and sending the engine over for rebuild every winter is not one of them.
It's always interesting to get different perspectives Mahle does a great piston, and JE/Wiseco are "OK"as far as US brands go. The Japanese brands to tend to use a much smaller bore clearance which helps oil control and tends to be quieter in operation, and they often (such as Toda) use an anti-scuff coating which isn't seen much on US or European (except for Cosworth) pistons. Japanese and European crank manufacturers tend to use EN40 steel, as opposed to the US who tend to use 4340. In terms of design it's probably fair to say that the Europeans and Japanese have more experience at high RPM engines such as the F motors. It's interesting what you say about that cam manufacturer. Over here (in the UK) they're not respected at all, in fact I have used them and been disappointed with the quality and performance (Honda and Toyota applications). Actually I really like some of the US manfactured cams, but again the Japanese brands are excellent too. I do agree that the TODA components are very expensive though, so must be focused at a narrow demographic. Good talking to you
You can buy the components individually or as a kit to build locally if you decide to go that route. PM if you need any info.
Please understand I'm not a 'go USA' gung-ho type of guy with American brands or any brand for that matter, but the incompetence I seem to run into both inside and outside the US is occasionally frustrating to say the least. I don't know any manufacturer of pistons (including Cosworth, their two guys are actually former JE employees as are Wossners US operations guys haha) running 2618 aluminum alloy running tighter than .0025 clearance in a 3.188" bore unless you're running nikasil or alusil in alum liners. If using 4032 (what Mahle use), one can go slightly tighter but it's not as tough of an alloy and expands less by a factor of 15% or so, and by tighter I mean maybe .001 tighter. And moly type skirt coatings have been around forever and are a very controversial subject on their own. EN40B is good because it's easy to nitride, no other reason to use it though as 4340, EN25 or EN26 are stronger but EN40, EN46 may be slightly easier to machine. EN numbering system does not follow strength, but rather just composition. 4340, EN25 & EN26 are harder to nitride requiring longer treatment times. Ferrari uses 4340 and gets their cranks to within .0001 runout, I sure don't know anyone who can get theirs that tight. It's just incompetent to assume using EN40B above 4340 is better or worse when one is simply easier to nitride. F1 cranks these days have been going with a special blend from I believe Aubert & Duval which has a special internal code name, but it is a 4340 VAR which is an electric arc vacuum remelt chrome moly alloy steel of very and purity. This is the material used for all high rev 4 stroke racing cranks, including F1, and it's not EN40B. If a group of Americans can build a giant and seemingly pointless pushrod engine to spin north of 10k rpm reliably then I'm certain they have adequate experience building high rpm engines. I've never seen Cat's work for anything other than Ferrari applications so you may be right, but the Ferrari stuff I've seen and use is fantastic. Some years ago Crane cams made a set of Maserati cams and they weren't to Cat's quality. Dimi Elgin is the best cam guy I've ever spoken with and he gives lectures and advice to oil manufacturers not to mention he's literally written a book on the subject. I wish Dimi were still agreeable to making Ferrari cams though....he's not, not really anyway.
Thanks everyone for the input. Your comments are highly appreciated. So now what? I got a reply for them, some hours ago and I can not continue with this plan. First of all, I have to say that Toda engines are race engines, meaning that there is no "honda oriented" approach to the matter. (Bore and stroke, vtec kicked in yo, I am one cool dude) One can not just order an engine. There are a whole bunch of other components that have to be changed. Cooling, tranny, silent blocks, bushings, arms..... They are dead serious about their conversions and the list is three pages big. So, for the time, this car gave all it had to give and it will be sold to the local market "as is" and an F430 will take its place in the garage, as in this country and this market, an F430 is at the right price and equals the rebuild of this engine, providing also, a more reliable basis, more horsepower and technology. Thank you for all your answers and I will report back soon as we pick our new toy. Be safe, be happy.
Haha, you said "vtec kicked in yo". Sorry to hear about the "death" of the car, but am happy to hear that a 430 will be replacing it. Offtopic - Anyone into racing should really check out JGTC if they get a chance. I was able to see them come out when they came to California Speedway in the early 2000s. Luckily, there was a local porsche race car that I was able to use for a reference. Let's just say JGTC cars made the Porsche look like the Hondas that Porsche was used to smoking, haha.
