360 vs. 911: why the disparity?

You answered to your question

Little factory support vs Constant Porsche Support ( some private teams are even called semi factory teams..).

In the FIA GT however the Modena arent outclassed , they put up a good fight but are outnumbered .

 

The major issues at Daytona were preparation and quality of drivers. There is little direct Porsche support, but lots and lots of indirect support. Ferrari is not structured to provide the same, particularly as it was something like 25 Porsches versus 3 Ferraris.

 

OldGuy is right here.

The 3 Ferrari teams are private teams that run it as a business with paying drivers, not paid drivers. The top Porsche teams are supported by the factory and I believe have paid drivers like Racersgroup.

 

I was thinking a lot about this too during the 6-7 hours I spent parked in front of the tube this weekend watching. They both should be running 3.6L engines, with no regulations the Ferrari should have more high end HP and the Porsche more low end torque (8 vs 6). It seems to me though that most of the time when they impose power restrictions they always favor torquier engines. It seems they tend to strangle high revving engines. The Ferrari could spin higher than the Porsche if they were allowed to go all out.

The Porsche definitely has less frontal area, and is certainly smaller in general, it'd be interesting to see how the weights compare between the two. Ferrari keeps making the cars larger and larger and slowly they have grown out of competitiveness.

This was 1000 times more interesting than a formula one race, and yet Ferrari totally neglects it. For 1/50 of the F1 budget they could be competitive even with the 360s inherent disadvantage (size). It will be interesting though to see how the 430 fairs, it would seem then the tables would be turned it would be the torquier engine, although I'm not sure if GT has displacement caps that wouldn't allow it?

 

You guys might like not to hear this but I think there is more to this than factory support. IMO that's an excuse and not a reason.

I'm a longtime Porsche owner and DE participant but also a Ferrari fan. I don't race but have a number of friends who do (some of whom competed at Daytona).

The simple fact is you or I can go buy a factory prepared racecar from Porsche that is more competitive and costs a heck of a lot less than the cars Ferrari offer. The ROI isn't even close.

The Supercup or GT3 not only costs less than a Challenge car it is more reliable, and, arguably, a better race car. The spare parts are downright cheap by comparison.

If you wanted to go racing- and have a real shot at winning- and you have a budget (who doesn't?) which car would you buy?

Most folks make the obvious choice: Porsche. The numbers at Daytona and elsewhere prove it- and most teams don't get a smidgeon of factory support.

 

This is also discussed by Rob in his 24 thread. As I said there IMO it's a sad day when Ferrari is beaten by Pontiac and Porsche at the 24 of Daytona for any reason. Period.

 

Go and look at ALMS and LeMans where the 360's are competitive with the Porsches on speed, if not reliability and these are much faster than the ones at Daytona.

 

Ferrari's are dominating F1 but little else. At Lemans and in ALMS series they're closer but they're not winning much. Corvettes are winning GTS class (Ferrari was second and third last year at Lemans 24 hours, right? At least I think so). Porsche still dominates GT class. Ferrari isn't even close. And Audi's own P1 in ALMS.

 

Err what about FIA GT ?

 

An interesting article:

No more Porsches, please!

Unfortunately it seems like it will be more of a NASCAR formula than production car formula. I can't tell if the new cars all have the same cage and different skin (like NASCAR) or must have the production chassis and a cage added to it.

 

I attended Daytona this weekend as an accidental fan, lured with the FerrariChat post "Drive Your Car at Daytona". What a pleasure!! The race was an awesome experience! The two laps were slow, 130 tops with stops. Lots of neat cars, with a Jaguare xj-15 spinning right in front of me, it was disappointing that he was escorted off the track without really completing one lap.

From my viewpoint, these "ironmen" are heros, from the bottom of the track, the banking looked like walls. I read a post that someone burned out two 360 F1 clutches backing the cars up the banks for a photo shoot, a story I now believe.

The Milestones pass inclueded lunch with Derek Bell and Hurley Haywood. Great stories from both. I had a funny thing happen. I went to the next tent over and purchased a photo of his winning long tail 917 for him to sign, to which his wife said Honey, are there any more of those, I want a picture of the car! To which he replied we have lots of those at home. Signiture with 246 mph. From a fans perspective, a true gentleman.

I understand the Fanzone and Daytona 500 club are new, and what a view. From the top, you can see the entire track. It is hypnotic,as action took place all around the track. And the garage with viewing windows is a very nice touch.

It is a shame there were not more Ferraries present, and no organzied club or parking. I know this is not F1, or a Challenge event, however, it appears that this is a great international Race.

A final note, and best of all, I drove Mr. Kenton's old 348c over 1,000 miles this weekend, from Savannah to Ft Laudedale and all points in between. I can't wait untill next years event...

 

Excelent article on the 360 in Racecar Engineering Online:

STALLION JOB:
Is the Ferrari 360 Modena really a credible alternative to the ubiquitous Porsche 911 Carrera on the GT3/N-GT stage? Team Maranello Concessionaires thinks so

 

Simple. Real racers don't care much what it looks or sounds like if it is fast and affordable. Why in the world would I spend 2X or more the price to race just to say I'm in a Ferrari? And also remember that organizers will make sure the rules prevent any lopsided performance advantage, so the Ferrari premium is not worth it unless price is no object in your race budget. Finally, Porsche has perhaps the finest heritage in endurance racing, especially in modern times, and I'd rather not have to re-engineer things. Heck, it took Prodrive to build competitive 550s a couple of years back. Not much of an endorsement for Ferrari from the factory.

Ferrari focuses solely on F1 right now, sports car racing is just not their bag, unless it is challenge racing.

 

A couple of years back I noted at the USGP that the Porsche Club race series times at Indy were several seconds per lap less than the Ferrari 360 Challenge cars. And the Porsche's were strret legal road cars some of which were driven to the track, raced and then driven home.

 

Frank,

Unless there was a Porsche Club race I missed, you must be referring to the Porsche Super Cup support race. Those are not streel legal (they do have cats installed) and I can assure you no one drove those $125,000 Porsche Cup cars to the track. They are raced by ex-F1 racers, up and coming F3 racers and young sports car racers (as well as a few paying customers).

They were indeed faster in terms of lap times but that was because of the driving talent, not the car. The Porsche Super Cup cars had about 380 hp and weighed a bit more than a 360 C.

The gentleman who won the Porsche support race the first year was I believe Stephan Ortelli, who has raced everything, and is racing the Austin Martin's this year in ALMS.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
www.flatoutracing.net

 

I believe that's the same Porsche driver in the FIA GT series. He didn't do too bad over there either.

 

Jon is right. You can view those cars at the site noted below and buy one without going through the ridiculous wait list and markup game played by Ferrari and it's dealer network. For a heck of a lot less too.

http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/motorsport/sales.nsf/usaenglish/sales

Don't get me wrong I do love Ferraris but in this game they lose big time to Porsche IMO.

 

And the Porsche is ready to win straight out of the box. You don't have to dump a lot of money into testing to get it there as you would the Ferrari.

 

That is only partly true and dependant upon where you race the car. At the upper levels of racing (ALMS, Rolex, FIA, ....) there is still quite a lot of testing going on to maximize the car. The difference between the two (360 and 911) is mainly in the type of testing.

In the 360 you are going to be testing components to see what lasts and what breaks. You are going to be testing things to see if they can be lightened up, you are going to be looking for weak links and trying to find the optimum combinations of different parts. In addition you will be testing for specific setups for each track and driver.

The strength of the 996 (or 997) is that most of your testing will not be focusing on making the car reliable but on specific setup. In the case of professional teams and porfessional series, most top teams replace the Porsche suspension that comes with the car. Most go with Motons, JRZ, Penske's, and other highline suspension kits.

For PCA, SCCA, and other club racing the GT3 is ready to go.

If I had an unlimited budget then yes, I would pick the 360 everytime because of my passion for Ferrari, but short of unlimited funds (and unlimited development) it makes no sense to use a car that costs twice as much to buy and three to four times as much to develop.

Why go through all that dvelopment, when someone else can do it for you.

Regards,

Jon

 

Yes, the one word answer is always COST. Generally you can make anything competetive you choose, it's just a question of how much it will cost you.