360CH at Maranello Motorsports

F1... which is a manual box. The only Ferrari Auto's are 400's and 456's.

 

$160K, is that the one? I also thought it would be alot more, any explanation?

 

Excellent car (ex Ted Huglin) with many new parts and extensive fully logged history, but mileage is quite high and engine/box technically needs a refresh.

If it were mine I'd run it longer, but it's into "maybe" territory. Great value. Capable of sub 1.40 at PIsland, Sub 1.30 at Winton and sub 60 at Calder.....in the right hands!!

 

Then what is the automatic button in my center console?

MM

 

the "self-destruct" button ??

(it does put them in the hybrid section doesn't it?)

 

Ha.. the auto button...... yeah well, errrm. For the wife?

 

There is a difference between an auto slush box (which loses power and gives you smoother changes) and a sequential manual box with a real clutch (which loses no power) but is operated by pneumatic pistons and pumps.
I have almost never used the so called 'auto' function in the 7 years of F1 transmission ownership.

 

that's because you're a driver; not a hairdresser (probably a good thing

 

I find using it exclusively in the 430 the only way to go

 

Hi RMV,

the problem with the 360 Challenge cars is their limited use now. They are pretty much relegated to the club track day brigade as they are no longer competitive in GT/Marque sports here. The other problem is the running costs, which can be quite extreme when things go wrong (and they do). There is a LOT of deferred maintanence that if it isn't kept up with, which will wilt your wallet badly when the engine goes bang at some time in the future.
Quite some time ago, Phil came up with a nicely detailed report on the running costs and maintanence schedules (when he was arguing with PP about being a tight arse). Phil may post the report, or I have it filed if he would consent to it being posted.
As for values, have a look on ebay. Now that the 430 Challenge will supercede the 360 in the challenge series overseas next year, the arse has fallen out of the market. They start at $80k US and go up to around $125k US for a mint no stories car. Add about $10k for shipping, 15% for duties and GST and you have the going rate for them on the world market.

p.s. I enjoyed your report on the Winton day at the FCA website, thanks for taking the time to post it!

 

In theory you COULD do that. In practise, you would need your head read if you tried it with any regularity. Someone in NSW used to drive one on dealer plates to the track and I think it did a road rally as well?

Picture rolling down a hill in a 44 gallon drum full of rocks. That would provide about the same comfort and enjoyment levels of sitting behind the wheel of a 360 Challenge on the road. VERY loud, cramped, zero ventilation, almost no ground clearance, poor visibility, rock hard suspension and a very on/off clutch take-up. NOT a happy place to be IMO !!

 

Unfortunately, I very much doubt the Challenge cars are going anywhere but south in value for some time to come. They were made for a pseudo race series in large numbers. They are also a hell of a lot closer to road cars than real race cars AND you can't use them on the road in most cases. For a historical reference point you can have a look at 348 Challenge values- you can't give 'em away! This all adds up to them being great value for money on the fun scale; but they won't ever be an investment grade automobile IMO.

SD

 

I would rather crawl on hands and knees over broken glass than use the Michelotto on the road!

 

You can repost the running costs Scott.

I disagree with saying the 360C is not competitive in GT/Marque sports though..... Savage, Teulan and Bryson went ok at Willowbank, and the cars are current......

Remember also that all current Aussie 360C's are ex PHR team, and have numerous tweaks and improvemnts that should be factored in when comparing to imported cars... but yes, they have come down a lot in price.

The biggest twaeaks are shocks and aero kit. But also many under skin things... like engine mount supports, gearbox mounts, gravel protection etc etc.

 

Smart boy!

 

They didn't win in their 360 Challenge cars did they? And if they did, why are they upgrading to the Michelotto GT cars? I agree that an ex-PHR car is a better deal than an unknown car from O.S. However, all those excellent tweaks that you mentioned don't bring any more $$$ to the table (unfortunately).

Running costs as per Phil:

We rebuild the engines at 4000km and gbox's at 2500km.

The 1999/early 2000 cars were built with inferior conrods and some can fail
depending on luck with the batch you get. Camshaft variators have also been
updated.

Ours have all been rebuilt with new spec rods and also camshaft variators
and we have had no problems since, however we keep to those lifes as
prevention is better than cure. A refresh costs around AUS$20,000 for engine
but if you lunch it it could cost 4 times that.

Gearbox's are very strong except selector forks/sleeves. Diff's are weak but
we do the transaxle as a whole most times. Cases crack here and there but
can be repaired a few times. Refresh is about AUS$15,000 but diff parts
costs nearly $10,000 landed so can cost over $25,000 to rebuild. New is
"only" about $30,000 so sometimes best option.

Track use is about 80% over 6000rpm, road use is 80% under 6000rpm. The wear
rate on track goes up exponentially (I love that big word!) with rpm so a
road car had a much easier time. A few track days a year won't hurt your
road car much at all.

Challenge cars are amazingly tough in most areas, there are a few weak
points, and we have made very many fairly small mods that make a big
difference to reliability.

We've now started over 100 races and covered about 40,000 track kms with all
our cars added up....and only had one diff failure in a race under life kms.
Also only one engine fail in a race. A couple of other failures while
testing or over recommended life etc but all things considered they are very
reliable.

I'd buy one...but preferably one of ours rather than a Euro trash
one....maybe make some plans then!

l


Basic engine rebuild estimate. (All times and prices are estimates based on history)

1. Remove engine from car, split from gearbox and inspect clutch/flywheel. 05 hrs
2. Clean engine, gearbox and engine bay as necessary. 04 hrs
3. Mount engine to stand and dismantle for inspection. 15 hrs
4. Make measurements as necessary to ascertain required action. 10 hrs
5. Compile parts for crack testing and despatch. 02 hrs
6. Thoroughly clean and inspect all parts prior to reassembly. 15 hrs
7. Replace camshaft variators and connecting rods for upgraded parts. 04 hrs
8. Reassemble engine with new gaskets and oil seals where necessary. 25 hrs
9. Remove from stand, fit flywheel, clutch and gearbox. 02 hrs
10. Install in car and run engine. Carry out system checks. 08 hrs
11. Replace cylinder head studs. 01 hr

Basic minimum approximately 91 hours@ $100/hr $9100

Optional Jobs.

1. Full detail of engine bay, repaint parts as necessary. 05 hrs
2. Dismantle and inspect cylinder heads. Lap valves. Reassemble. 25 hrs
3. Test valve springs and replace if necessary. 05 hrs
4. Replace valves. 01 hr
5. Repaint engine cam covers, Plenum chambers and full detail 25 hrs
6. Replace pistons and rings, Camshafts, oil pumps and any other required repairs. 15 hrs
7. Overhaul front cover shafts, bearings and seals. Replace oil pump chain etc. 10 hrs
8. Replace rear main and camshaft seals. 01 hr
9. Overhaul water pump. 05 hrs
10. Replace clutch. 00 hrs
11. Run engine in on chassis dyno. 04 hrs
12. Carry out power and torque tests on dyno. 01 hr

Approximate additional optional 97 hours@ $100/hr $9700



Specialist / Sub-contractor.

1. Overhaul starter motor. $162
2. Overhaul alternator. $120
3. Replace and machine valve guides and seats. $707
4. Replace liners. $473








Parts for basic rebuild. (prices subject to manufacturers invoice at time of delivery)

Complete gasket set $1168.48
Conrod set $3000.00 (tba)
Piston rings $ 992
Big end bearings set $ 297.92
Main bearings set $ 180.74
Thrust bearings $ 19.01
Cambelts $ 164
Camshaft variators $ FOC
Cylinder head studs $ 270.40
13 litres engine oil $ 264.81
6 litres coolant $ 124.14
Assorted consumables $ 100
Crack testing $ 300

Approx total $6881.50

Optional parts.

Inlet valves (24) $1825.20
Exhaust valves (16) $2904.16
Inlet valve guides (24) $ 910.56
Pistons (with rings) (8) $1989.92
RH inlet cam $1732.06
RH Exhaust cam $1732.06
LH Inlet cam $1734.51
LH Exhaust cam $1734.51
Oil pump complete (approx) $1800
Valve springs outer (40) $ 465.20
Valve springs inner (40) $ 309.60
Clutch $1718.17
Water pump parts $ 856.00

Approx total $20,318.99

We recommend the optional basic cylinder head inspection is carried out. Some of the costs cancel out, for example, it costs $500 to test the valve springs yet only $774.80 to replace them all so we recommend to replace as it’s only $274. We also recommend a full engine bay detail and a running in procedure on the chassis dyno afterwards.

To summarise

Basic engine rebuild labour $9100
Optional labour (cyl heads, detail and dyno etc) $3500
Engine parts (inc valve springs) $7656.30
Exhaust valve guides (16) $ 607.04
Total estimate $20,256.30

 

Another post from Phil, which also shows how much he and AIRCON love each other



Here we go, another tight arse, do I really need all 8 new spark plugs type!

Do you squeak when you walk??

You can save money in many ways. Just leave it till it blows if you like...
The facilities infrastructure and "implied" but not written warranty don't
appear by magic.

As one guy says on the PROCAR forum....if you have a ten dollar head, wear a
ten dollar helmet!!

A rebuild involves crank, block, heads, cams etc etc, eg A crank should be
ok for three refreshes, but then change.

V8 Supercar engines cost 100,000 and don't last as long. Super tourers have
a rebuild every 1500km. Neither of these cars rev as high as the Ferrari.
The piston mass is good, but not what you'd call race type.

The N-GT rev's higher but is lifed to 5000km. A new one is $120,000! A rebuild only a little less and "Michelotto only". You're lucky Peter that
there are people within the Australian economy that can actually do a proper
job with racing Ferrari's. If you need to go to Europe then $$$$$$!!!!!

Remember there's a huge difference between club track days, and competitive
racing.

Phil


Not too much extra info; but informative relative to other race cars and it shows just how far back PP and Phil's love affair goes