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365 GT 2+2 Restoration Questions

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by TLKIZER660, Oct 3, 2005.

  1. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    Some of these questions may seem nit-picky, but I’m in the process of a “strip to bare metal” restoration and repaint, and want to do it right.

    I would like simply to be able to put the car together like it was, but I’m not sure it was right when I took it apart. Originally it was painted Grigio Ortello (medium gray with a touch of olive green). Between 1969 and 1984, it was repainted red then repainted Grigio Ortello again. Both repaints were done without removing the windshield, backlight or doors, although masking was well done. Here are the first two questions.

    1) The metal strips that cover the lower rocker panel weld flanges are painted semi-gloss or satin black and are installed with Phillips flat head machine screws, nuts and washers, also painted black. IS THIS CORRECT FOR A 365 GT 2+2?

    2) In the trough just outboard of the hood seal, where the front fender aprons are attached to the fenders, the fasteners on my car are unpainted pop rivets. They appear to have been installed after the fender was painted. I had the engine compartment and underbody stripped and repainted while the engine was being restored so it’s possible that the fender aprons were detached at that time and re-riveted after the fender aprons were painted. ARE THE FASTENERS SUPPOSED TO BE SCREWS, RIVETS, OR SPOT WELDS? IF THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THERE, ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE PAINTED OR BARE METAL?

    I’m sure that I will have many more questions as I progress. If any of you owner or non-owner experts can advise me, it will be greatly appreciated. I think that this thread might become a good source for 365 GT 2+2 restorers, so please don’t hesitate to help if you have answers.

    Also, If you have questions related to the restoration or authenticity of a 365 GT 2+2, don’t hesitate to ask them. I won’t consider it a high-jack.

    Thanks in advance.

    Tom Kizer
     
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  3. dgrperformance

    dgrperformance Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2005
    308
    Oceanside, CA
    1. yes

    2. are you talking about the inner fender splash shields that hide the blower fans in front and the heater boxes/ Dinoplex(U.S. cars) in the rear? if so the front shield should be attached with three 3mm phillips head screws with large diameter flat washers to the metal tabs welded on the 1/2 diameter support tubes. The rear splash shield is attached with phillips head sheet metal screws also with large diameter flat washers and one small screw at the bottem into the floorboard tube. If you are talking about the deflector shields that go from the grill to the inner fender I have seen both screws and rivets but either way should be painted black to match.

    Any questions you may have feel free to ask I will do my best to help
     
  4. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    Thanks for the confirmation on the rocker panel flange covers. Also thanks for the info on the splash shield attachments. Mine are exactly as you describe. My second question actually related to the top of the fender, the part that is exposed when the hood is raised, next to the rubber hood seal. In the bottom of the groove that runs around the outside of the hood seal, I find the unpainted heads of the pop rivets. Those are the ones that I suspect are not original. Just in case there is still confusion, I'll take photos today while I'm at the shop, finishing the removal of the instrument panel.
    Thanks again.

    Question 3: Is a 365 GT 2+2 supposed to have hood bumper stops? My hood flushness to the rest of the car is controlled by the hood latches holding the hood in compression against the hood seal. IS THIS CORRECT?

    Tom Kizer
     
  5. jcwconsult

    jcwconsult Karting

    Sep 20, 2004
    223
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Full Name:
    Jim Walker
    My 365, #12451, has chrome strips at the bottom of the rocker panels, and I always believed that was incorrect. My mechanic (Pebble & Meadowbrook winner) says it is incorrect. But, in Keith Bluemel's book, "Original Ferrari V12 1965-1973, The Restorer's Guide", the right hand drive 365 GT 2+2 on page 72 has bright strips, not black ones. The car on page 71 seems to have the black strips. Perhaps both were used.

    Regards,

    Jim Walker
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Words are so confusing ... what's that saying?: Pictures and something regarding 1000 words.

    Digital cameras are getting cheaper everyday ;) ... and then the rest of us can enjoy the pictures too.
    Pete
     
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  8. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
    9,212
    CHNDLR
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    Scott

    While Bluemel knows a heck of a lot and this book has great photos, there are a few photos where the car's owner has taken some liberties on the restorations. For example, I noted that some of the 330 photos of interior door panels lacke dthe plug for the electric window manual assist.
    Take things with a grain of salt.
     
  9. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    #7 TLKIZER660, Oct 5, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    OK! OK! I know you all (y'all where I came from) like pictures, so here are a few.
    1) The car in my driveway in Quebec last summer.
    2) The car last week after it was 98% gutted in preparation for a "correctly done" strip, bump and repaint.
    3) The rivets in the groove around the outside of the hood seal, just under the edge of the hood. These are the ones I think are not correct.

    Let me know if there are any other photos you would like to see while its "innerds" are exposed.

    Tom Kizer
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  10. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    WOW! It looks like I need to learn to post photos. They were all supposed to be the size of the small one.
    Tom Kizer
     
  11. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    16,379
    Savannah
    Full Name:
    I NEED A JOB
    sorry to hijack, but i must say the car is a stunning color and the house is beautiful. best wishes with your restorations.
     
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  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Agree ... not sure why it needed a full restoration?, but the devil is in the details and what do I know :)

    Really nice looking car.
    Pete
     
  14. dgrperformance

    dgrperformance Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2005
    308
    Oceanside, CA
    o.k. that makes more since the pop rivets have pictured aren't or shouldn't be holding anything on. That is where the hood bumpers mount I have no idea why someone would put pop rivets there.

    Zac
     
  15. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Looks like we have an answer for question 3 ;)
    Pete :D ... sorry bored at work.
     
  16. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    #13 TLKIZER660, Oct 5, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    dgrperformance said:
    The photo showed only one of the rivets. There are eight total. The attached photo, taken a few years ago, clearly shows three on one side. The fourth is almost visible near the safety hook eye. ARE THERE REALLY EIGHT HOOD BUMPERS? WHAT DO HOOD BUMPERS LOOK LIKE?
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  17. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,731
    Santa Fe, NM
    someone will have a pic of the bumper; I think it was the same that Ferrari used for a really long time. the hood bumpers on my 1968 365 appear to be identical to those on our 1955 mondial . . .

    the profile of your hood seal looks really thick in the last pic you posted - like it's actually a bulb-shaped seal. the piece of rubber/vinyl at the same location on my car is very thin - it just wraps the steel flange.

    christ - I just realized; if you look at my profile pic, it shows a few of the hood bumpers as well as the vinyl/rubber trim around that engine bay flange . . .
     
  18. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2003
    2,017
    San Francisco
    I agree - based on your picture, it looks like you have an extra fat rubber moulding around the hood instead of the thin vinyl moulding and rubber hood bumpers. This probably works just fine, but I've not seen one done that way before.

    Kyle Tanner has a nice cross-section picture of what the rubber trim looks like for a 365 2+2, for future reference.

    http://www.ferraripartsexchange.com/365GT2+2Rubber.htm
     
  19. 330gt

    330gt Formula 3

    Nov 12, 2004
    1,753
    Seattle, WA
    Full Name:
    Kerry Chesbro
    Someone probably didn't know about the hood bumpers. I've been known to put a pop rivet or two in where there's a hole in the sheet metal where there shouldn't be one. Painted black (under the hood area), they are hard to spot and usually someone looking at it wouldn't know that there wasn't supposed to be a pop rivet there but they would notice a hole. They just assume that it's holding something under the fender (or whereever). The alternative is getting out the brazing torch and filling in the hole. Much more time consuming and may be difficult depending on where the hole is and what's on the back side of the panel.

    Here's a picture of the standard hood bumper:
    http://www.parrotbyte.com/330GTRegistry/Encylopedia/HoodBumper.JPG

    Regards, Kerry
     
  20. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    #17 TLKIZER660, Oct 6, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The FerrariChat members, working together, would make a good detective agency. I suspect you've found the answers. The hood seal was the type of bulb seal with an inverted U underneath it and a tiny lip hanging off the top of the bulb (a trunk seal, I think) - probably installed when the hood bumpers were lost during a repaint. The resulting holes were probably just "filled" with the pop rivets. I'll remove them and install hood bumpers. DO THEY SCREW ON THROUGH THE CENTER HOLES? I'll also replace the bulb seal with the correct vinyl/rubber U-shaped flange lip covering.

    There's a lip seal retainer on the bottom of each door that has never contained anything. Look at the photo. CAN I ASSUME THAT THE 365 GT 2+2 RUBBER SEAL DIAGRAM AT FERRARI PARTS EXCHANGE IS CORRECT? In the diagram, I find no seal on the bottom of the door except the bulb seal that goes around the opening. IS THE ONE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE DOOR SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THE T-SHAPED SEAL AT THE FRONT OF THE DOOR?

    Apparently if one is willing to spend money to restore a vintage Ferrari, it's possible to do it correctly - but only if one knows what "correct" is.

    Tom Kizer
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  21. JonBrent

    JonBrent Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    732
    Heaven on Earth
    Full Name:
    JB
    Kerry's picture looks exactly like the ones on my 330. The screw which goes through the middle is the same button head philips used everywhere else (holding the interior trim in etc)

    The lip seal on the 330 is actually somewhat square, and imo is only there to visually tidy up the sheet metal seam between the fender and the engine bay sidewall.

    Lousy picture, but you get the idea:
    http://www.jb330gt.com/pictures/PPI7537EngineRight900.jpg

    The 330 door bottom seal is a T, although I remember it being flat on the top

    Cheers,
    JB
     
  22. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    I just started exploring Kerry Chesbro's site and finally found the area where the photos of the rubber are located. I can only dream of what it would be like to have a site like that devoted to 365 GT 2+2s. There's so much knowledge on that site, it's hard to believe. I'll use it as a resource for my 365 GT with attention to verifying that things I use were still true for my car. Thanks Kerry.

    By the way, I found the photo of the T-seal used at the bottom of the door. I suspect it's the one that Ferrari Parts Exchange calls # 127 - Outer Window T-Seal and shows the arrow pointing to the top of the window.

    Without FerrariChat and all of the knowledge represented by its membership, I would never have started this body restoration. NOTE: The reason I'm doing the body only is that the engine, transmission, differential, suspension, underbody and engine compartment were carefully restored (as correctly as I knew at that time) between 1989 (started teardown) and 1997 (first fire). Because there was some bubbling of the paint at the front of the doors and on the rocker panels, I know that anyone considering buying the car some day would think that the car is all rotted out and that much is probably wrong with the car. I decided to just gut the car myself, have it stripped to the metal, repaired correctly, and repainted. While I'm at it, I'll just replace all or most of the rubber, the insulation, headliner, much of the trim vinyl and do an as-required restoration of the leather interior. Then, with a photo portfolio, no one will question what's under the paint, leather and carpet.

    Thanks for all your help so far - and don't stop now!

    Tom Kizer
     
  23. dgrperformance

    dgrperformance Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2005
    308
    Oceanside, CA
    tom,

    I do my best to track and document the 365's I would put together a website if I had th time but it just does not seem to make the priority list. If you or any other 365 owners need help or have questions just ask I am always available. As for your rubber seals I just sent an envelope off to a rubber parts supplier with samples of every original seal on the car and should hear back next week as to availabilty and cost. I have yet to see a proper trunk seal or the correct vinyl hood seal available from the regular Ferrari suppliers. If I can't find all the correct profiles I have a company that will make up a run of everything and then it will be available from now on.

    Zac
     
  24. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 5, 2002
    20,074
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Don
    I had a lot of difficulty getting a trunk seal for my 365. Lyle Tanner, I think, claimed to have the correct one, but what he sent us had no relationship to the trunk seal on either my car or the other 365 2+2 that lives in the shop I've been working with.

    We ended up getting a bunch of samples from Re-Originals, and going with the one which seemed to work best, even though it is clearly different from the original.

    Does the Pininfarina Body Parts Manual specify the rubber seals?

     
  25. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    My copy of the 365 GT 2+2 Pininfarina parts catalog shows a trunk lid seal P/N 251.34.510.00. I cannot identify which type it is. I can find NO other trunk seal in the Pininfarina parts catalog. My car had 2, one approx. 1"x1/4" rectangular foam seal glued to the trunk lid and another bulb seal slipped over the seam around the trunk opening. The profile detail is not shown in the parts catalog. DOES ANYBODY KNOW FOR SURE? This is not a multiple choice question - NO GUESSING!

    I begin to suspect that rubber seals are a little bit like Ferrari yellow inspection paint. They may have used whatever they could find at the auto parts store when they ran out in the factory. Maybe purism is really masochism after all. Why couldn't they have taken some close-up photos in the factory?
     
  26. JonBrent

    JonBrent Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    732
    Heaven on Earth
    Full Name:
    JB
    Well, here is what is on 7537, and I suspect its original by its condition but don't know 100% for sure:

    http://www.jb330gt.com/Trunk.htm

    The trunk gasket is also a square foam piece, with the body seams being covered with another hard plastic U looking just like the engine bay lip seal.

    HTH, JB
     
  27. TLKIZER660

    TLKIZER660 Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    315
    Québec
    This afternoon, I saw in a used book shop a book entitled "L'histoire de Ferrari", in French of course. There was a beautiful photo of the 365 GT 2+2 sitting on display at the 1967 Paris Salon. Clearly visible were the rocker panel flange covers - painted black with the frontmost screwhead showing.
    I guess that answers my first question, without doubt.
    Tom Kizer
     
  28. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Bill
    Tom ... please scan that pic and post it. The color of the rocker panel flange covers came up again at the last concours. Thanks!
     

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