365 gt 2+2 vs 330 gt 2+2

I don't think there is much of a difference in the interiors between a 330GTC and a 365GTC.

You are right about the 365GT 2+2, though! I drove mine 10+ hours in one day a few months ago, and it was great. It's a wonderful long-distance car.

 

Spook, can you please tell me where you get the figure that only 17 or the 50 330 Americas are intact? I'm not doubting you--I certainly don't know--but the compilations I've seen indicate that more (perhaps 35 or so) might still be intact (meaning not parted out, crashed, or rebodied). Unfortunately, I can't put my hands on the sources I've seen. Thanks for any information.

 

Check w Tom Yang he has spent several years tracking down details on the 330 America owners and survivors

 

I think that says it all...

 

Davis,

There are 17 Americas known to be intact. I'm not sure what the number is for destroyed, parted out etc. is but I would bet that there are several cars that are not accounted for.

Regards,

Art S.

 

davis...good question on where I got that info...I don't remember...probably from a discussion on Tom Yang's board.

Kerry Chesbro is The Man when it comes to 330 series history:

http://www.parrotbyte.com/330GTRegistry/

 

4969 Michael Greenspan
4973 Shaughnessy (9/04) --Was this one chopped up Tom?
4973 Mike Westrick
4981 ?
4983 ?
4987 ?
4989 in France
4991 Hans-Guido Reigel
4993 ? (at Krause auction 1993)
4995 ? (Lambert Motors Ia. 1993)
4997 ? reported to be SWB replica
4999 Stephen Pilkington
5001 ? (reported to be parted out)
5005 TR replica
5007 ? (Last seen in Toronto 1993)
5009 Henry Camisasca
5011 ? (last seen 1986 Andrew Lynn NY, NY)
5013 Terry Smith (car sans engine which is in GTO replica)
5015 Kent Douglas
5019 Stuart Moiles
5023 ? (Last seen in Switzerland 1995)
5025 John Maloney
5027 Frank Brodie offered for sale 2003
5033 wrecked and parted out - engine in GTE 4799
5035 in Austria
5037 Alfred Steenwinkel
5039 ? (Last seen Norman Thompson Santa Barbara, Ca. 1993)
5041 ? (Last seen Lance Coren Torrance, Ca 1991)
5047 Terry Smith (car drivetrain missing)
5049 Ron Gehrke
5051 ? (Last seen John Andrews Sunnymead Ca. 1994)
5053 Tom Yang
5055 Car buried with owner Sandra West 1997
5059 Robert Suggett
5061 Steve Patti
5065 ?
5069 ? (Last seen in Italy 1995)
5071 ? (Last seen for sale European Auto Restoration Costa Mesa, Ca. 1978)
5075 Linus Bittner
5077 Mike Westrick
5079 parted out
5063 Charles King (with non number matching engine)
5103 Wolfgang Techel
5105 Peter Kalikow
5107 Roberty Pease
5109 Don Roose
5113 Chuck Kirkpatrick
5121 Axel Lantzsch
5125 parted out

Quite a few more then 17 there. Yale

 

Looks like the only 17 left is an urban legend.

 

Wondering the same thing.

Sounds like such a waste.

 

It is really true.

If you feel like paying a token fee for the privilege of seeing the burial, you can get a copy of ABC-TV's coverage of it from Vanderbilt's archives:
http://openweb.tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/1977-5/1977-05-19-ABC-17.html

Some accounts have mistakenly called the car a 250 GTE; all seem to agree that it was a light blue color.

According to Kerry's website, the car was in poor condition and/or undrivable.

It would be pretty cool for someone to get the video and post it somewhere...

--Matt

 

I always wondered if she died in an auto accident, or what?

Incidentally, I believe she owned the car from new.

Anyway, from a Google search:

In March 1977, Sandra West, widow of the
Texas oil millionaire Ike West, died at the tender
age of 37. The instructions for the disposal of
her US$2.8 million estate were meticulous in their
detail. Her brother-in-law, Sol West, was
understandably delighted when he heard that
he was the sole beneficiary but his face dropped
a mile when he heard the conditions. Not for
Sandra a quiet funeral and a standard coffin -
Sandra wished to be dressed in her favourite
lace negligige and then seated in her beloved
1964 blue Ferrari with the seat slanted at a
comfortable angle.

The bizarre instructions did not end there. As a
deterrent to would-be grave robbers, the Ferrari
was to be packed into a steel-reinforced wooden
container, which was in turn to be encased
completely in concrete.

The penalty for not carrying out this last grand
request? Sol West would inherit just US $10,000.
Faced with the daunting prospect of organising
the grandest burial since that of Tutankhamun,
not to mention losing a not insignificant sum of
over $2 million, he understandably tried his luck
in the courts and contested the terms.
Frivolous though Sandra's requests may have
been, but strictly on a point of law, the Court in
Los Angeles (a city not known for its containment
of excess) allowed Sandra West her grand exit
from this world.
The Judge declared a person has a right to
dispose of his or her own remains as he or she sees
fit if it does not violate the law.

Sandra West was duly buried and Sol received
his legacy.

 

On a separate note, did anyone else notice that an average 365GT 2+2 made almost $90k at Monterey last month? (Over $90k with buyer's premium!)

 

I believe that was the car parked next to me at Concorso. I might have a partial picture of it at home if anyone's interested (I was mainly taking pictures of Daytonas, so it likely snuck itself in!). This is the silver/black car, right? It looked nice enough. The Auction guys who brought the car couldn't get the passenger wing window closed and took the door apart to try to fix it. Turned out it was a loose connection at the switch.

Not sure it was worth the money, though. I know BryanP looked the car over. Maybe he can give his impressions?

Anyone know anything about the 365GT #12789 at Motorcar Gallery? I believe this is the same one I test drove a year ago when I bought my Daytona. Unfortunately, the head gasket blew during my test drive. Tim Stanford has since fixed it. It struck me as a really nice driver at the time and the price looks reasonable.

http://www.motorcargallery.com/car04_0.html

-steve

 

I'd have to go back and look at my film, but wasn't this one silver/maroon? I walked up to the car very early in the morning and asked the guys at the car if they were the owner(s). "No, but do you know anything about these cars? Because we can't get this vent window closed." "Uh, yeah. If you've checked the fuse, then you either have an issue w/the switch, or you've opened the window too far and ground smooth the piece-of-crap pot-metal worm gear at the top of the motor . ." I never got to see the motor on this car. I was told that R&S has 'sold' this car several times in the last 2 years - don't know if that is true or not.

The big restoration money spent was on Scott ______'s blue queen down the row; he won a gold, I believe - very, very nice. The other silver queen was at the end of the row at the top of the hill - french owner who had also spent a lot of fix-up $$, but he was missing all of the emissions equipment (frankly, I'd remove all that crap, too. But if you're showing it . . .). The following is the crux of Yale's conversation w/ that guy re: sources of info for 365GT2+2's; "Have you checked the internet?" "Yes." "And you didn't find tomyang.net?" "What? No." "HOW DO YOU SEARCH THE WEB FOR VINTAGE 2+2 FERRARIS AND NOT FIND TOMYANG.NET?!!" Yale then offers to share his freedom fries. OK, the last part didn't happen.

The last queen there was Rudy van Daalen Wetter's (from tom's site) brother's lovely gray metallic car. But I never managed to be at the car when they were there, so I didn't get to see the motor.

 

It might have been Maroon. It was a grey day - I saw it as black.

-steve

 

[/QUOTE]The following is the crux of Yale's conversation w/ that guy re: sources of info for 365GT2+2's; "Have you checked the internet?" "Yes." "And you didn't find tomyang.net?" "What? No." "HOW DO YOU SEARCH THE WEB FOR VINTAGE 2+2 FERRARIS AND NOT FIND TOMYANG.NET?!!" Yale then offers to share his freedom fries. OK, the last part didn't happen.
[/QUOTE]


Damn, I am always so politic aren't I? I guess you can take the boy out of New York but not the...

Yale

 

I would be interested on any info on this car, particularly "stories"

 

get what you like...market likes the 2 headlite, so no longer a bargain...no p/s or a/c on mine....a/c on a 60's or 70's anything??? who cares.....
p/s would be nice, but again..who cares..12 cylinders makes up for that..
Bot mine from Heritage Classics a few years ago...spent a couple of g's on minor sorting, but that's it..good PPI and head-check will let you know general mechanical condition and general ring condition...PPI is the key...you will spend some money sorting...but if you stay out of the top-end and trans, it shouldn't be out of hand..
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Hi guys,

last summer I had an extending thread with you about buying a 330 2+2, I already own a racy Jaguar E-Type S1 and have some experience (positive up to now) on this particular subject but not at all with Ferrari, especially not vintage. Last sumemr I had a closer look at one example in Austria but that actually was all the effort I invested up to now, however I always have a look at the market.

Yesterday I saw one for sale here in Munich, Germany where I live and called the guy. He already sold the car but I had a quite long talk with him about his car and vintage Ferraris in general.

The first thing he said, and what I also read in this thread, is that the costs to maintain or restore the 330 are about the same as with the other Ferraris, including the much more expensive models because they technically are about the same. But the costs for maintainance posted in this theread don't seem to be extraordinary high to me, even not the $10k after purchase.

This guy also told me that the costs are so high beceuase most of the parts are not available anymore and that's the main problem. A complete engine overhaul costs about 25k Euros and the gearbox about 15k Euros. If you don't buy a newly restored car and you drive it, you will have to that sooner or later. Also, the possibility that something dangerous occurs is high. He heard a tickering of one of the valves and the cylinderhead had to be overhauled in order to repear one close-to-be-broken valve. Gone were 15k Euros and if the valve would have been broken, the complete damage of the engine could have occured easily.

What do you think about it?

How much do you pay per hour in your workshops? For the Jag I pay obout 60 Euro/h.

BTW - best regards to Scott, Art, Spook etc.!!!!

 

Martin:

That is truly the realistic downside of owning a production vintage 12 2+2...under the skin it's the same as other Ferraris of the era but commands only a fraction of the sale prices that 2-seat models and limited production 4-seaters do.

As insurance, I take my car for a yearly checkup and fluid change at the top independent Ferrari shop here in Dallas. Their labor rates are about US $90/hour, and I'll end up spending around $800 including supplies. Your 60 euros for Jag labor works out to US $72, and I'm sure there are Ferrari shops here in that range. It seems like Ferrari, Jag, BMW, whatever...it's all in the same ballpark.

Also, I take care to not run the engine past 5500 RPM, and rev it that high only rarely. I've hit 6500 plus on a few occasions...very entertaining but not worth the risk. The nice thing is that the 4-liter 12 makes wonderful sounds in any rev range...it doesn't have to be anywhere near top shriek to thoroughly enjoy it...in fact, I can take it out for a neighborhood cruise, never get above 45 mph, and still have a great time.

A major engine or drivetrain repair is something that I don't like to think about, but if it comes along, I asked for it when I bought the car.

 

Hi Scott,

sorry I mixed up the names (Scott, Spook)...

Ok, I see. A major engine or drivetrain repair is exactly what you not want with this car. But isn't it that the engine actually could be reved pretty high though?

The Munich guy I talked to explained that it is inevitably to reach the point of an overhaul of either, when you drive the car. I am not sure, but I think it depends on when the last one was made and if some problem occurs. But if you buy a car, you are never sure. And he said if the seller tells you the enginge was made, it's most probably a lie, because it is so extremely expensive.

Best regards from a snowy Munich to Dallas,

Martin

 

John, If you have interest in a Queen Mother get in touch.

 

Martin...spook or Scott is fine for me, there are some other Scotts on here too.

Decision making factors in buying my car were that it had only three previous owners, the third one for 27 years, verifiable 39.5K miles, and the engine and drivetrain checked out perfectly in the PPI. I'm now pushing 43.5K miles with no signs of trouble...barring something unfortunate and unforseen, and with excellent maintenance and easy driving, I'm guessing that I can make another 20K miles minimum before the cylinder heads need to come off. At 2K miles a year, 10 years out.

Yes, the factory recommended rev limit on the 330 engine in street trim is around 6800 RPM, but with a forty-two year old car I'll take their word for it.

What are your current thoughts on purchasing a Ferrari?

Nice cool weather here in Texas; I'm enjoying my car before it has to go into summer semi-hibernation.

Likewise, very best wishes!