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365 GT4, 400 vs. other Italian

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by bane, Feb 1, 2008.

  1. bane

    bane Rookie

    Feb 1, 2008
    6
    Croatia
    I'm considering of buying an exotic sportscar of sixties or seventies vintage.

    Not interested in modern cars. Only the old school.

    Main purpose of this car would be weekend pleasure, on some of the pretty roads around here, and more importantly, long distance traveling around the world.
    So, it would have to be relatively comfortable, strong, good looking (although this is a rather subjective category), it must have a "spine-tickling" sound. Race-pedigreed engine with 8 or 12 cilinders. Also I like the sound of carburettors. It should also be reliable and durable.

    After some searching and thinking, I have excluded all other cars except for Italian (only exception could be a 930 turbo, and Morgan Plus 8). Budget is 25-40K euros.

    Choices:
    Alfa Romeo: Montreal
    Ferrari: 365 GT4 2+2, 400
    Lamborghini: Espada, Jarama, Jalpa
    Maserati: any V8 coupes
    Morgan: Plus 8
    Porsche: 930 turbo

    Ferrari is striking. Definitely has "spine-tickling" sound, from a race pedigreed engine. Maintenance would be probably higher than for the other cars. Not as exotic like two-seaters, but you get a tremendous value for the money, 30-60 % discount for the same glorious Ferrari V12.

    Any opinions?
     
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  3. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    343
    I think you have obviously have spent a good deal of well spent time researching this and have an answer. The 1970s carburated V 12s from Ferrari are the last of the true bruts and are way underpriced at the moment. I think the only real competitor here would be the Lamborghini Espada. An Alfa Montreal is interesting, but just as costly to maintain and as hard to find parts for without the upside appreciation potential associated with the rest of the marque. Like real estate, you don't want to buy the most expensive house in a poor neighborhood; far better to be the small house on a street of mansions.

    Maintenance costs on any of these cars will be a factor to consider, but you get what you pay for. Carbs require work but once they're dialed in, they're dialed in. And, you can find no shortage of people competent to do the work, which you can't say of early f.i. systems. I have a 365 GT4 and a 412. The former is a real pleasure to drive and is far more engaging than the 412, largely because of the auto tranny. That said, it's really got to be an occassional, weekend car, as it takes real work to drive it, especially in traffic. A 412
     
  4. alessiogiorgio

    alessiogiorgio Karting

    Nov 24, 2007
    136
    Italy - Sweden
    Full Name:
    alessio giorgio
    to choose an historical Ferrari is
    the best selection. Any Km will be great. Better not a red car.
    I suggest to buy in very good condition because to fix them is very expensive. no hurry to buy and look in the previous tread in our chat the comments of owners.
    I like very much since the arrival
    the ESPADA. A wonderfull line and
    a car with good technical solutions. On the contrary the Montreal had not the succeess when was launched, despite his
    clear quality. But with this car you
    shall not have the image of driving
    a classic Ferrari or Lambo.
    ciao
    Alex
     
  5. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,087
    Central NJ
    If a 2 seater is OK, go with the Montreal. If you want a 4 seater, Ferrari 365GT4 2+2 / Ferrari 400 is a good choice (as long as you are aware that it is a GT cruiser not a sportscar). Another interesting option is the Lambo Jarama.

    Regards,

    Art S.

    PS. Buy the very best car you can find, it will be much cheaper in the long run!
     
  6. bane

    bane Rookie

    Feb 1, 2008
    6
    Croatia
    Thanks for the comments!

    I was reading other threads on this forum, so much information, great place you have here!

    You are right about Montreal, it is out of Alfa mainstream, smaller Alfas are nimble and potent, their glory was made on four cylinder small displacement high performance engines. Montreal's dry-sumped V8 from Tipo 33 racer is unique and complex. Car has excesive weight on a standard Giulia chassis. Much of Montreal is of-the-shelf Giulia equipment, so should be easier to maintain than others. Also they are durable, few hundred thousand kilometers can be made without engine rebuidling.
    Carburetted 365 Ferraris could see prices going up pretty soon, it is a good time to buy now. FI ones will have to wait for some time.
    There is another italian car: De Tomaso Pantera.
    But this is not in this league of comfort. Longchamp maybe?

    How many kilometers can a Ferrari V12 make if maintained properly and handled with care?
     
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  8. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,087
    Central NJ
    There is a mechanic in the vintage section that has used his 330GTC as a daily driver for many, many years, it is approaching 200k miles and has not been rebuilt.

    With proper care and not abusive ownership, the V-12s can last a very long time.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  9. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    343
    DeTomaso is really a totally different beast. Now you're talking about mid-engine american iron with two seats an sketchy initial build quality. The car is fairly widely distributed here in the states and has a solid, enthusiatic following. I think if you're looking for that vintage experience, as opposed to raw, nearly-kit car power your better off with a front engine 12 cylinder GT like the ferrari 365 GT4 or 400GT (but not the "i") or the Lambo Espada. Another intriguing option would be a lambo jarama. Far less attractive asthetically than an Espada perhaps but an interesting and slightly smaller car nonetheless. There seem tohave been a few of them on offer in Europe lately.
     
  10. bane

    bane Rookie

    Feb 1, 2008
    6
    Croatia
    Yes, Pantera is different. At this point I wanted to include several types and marques of cars, just to make sure I covered it all. Pantera wasn't on my list, but came up now, and it deserves attention.

    Basicaly this cars can be split into two categories:
    Fourseaters: Ferrari 365/400, Lambo Espada/Jarama.
    Twoseaters(with or without rear "seats"): Montreal, Pantera, 930, Lambo Jalpa/Uracco, Maserati Indy,Khamshin

    Morgan doesn't attract any attention here... its a great driving experience, extravagant, strong individualist, exclusive and timeless, no rust (wooden panels). Its not suited for longer distance traveling and bad weather so I can write him off.
    Jaguar E-type V12 was also considered earlier, could be good also.

    For now, two seats are enough, but I think that later on down the road I will maybe regret not having four seats...
     
  11. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
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    Brian White
    Maybe I'm biased, but out of your list? I'd to a 365/400/400i 5-speed hands down.
     
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  13. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,087
    Central NJ
    bane,

    I'm still not clear as to what you actually want. Until this is clear, this is an academic exersize.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  14. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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  15. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    Oh and before anyone puts their foot in their mouth they are perfectly reliable if driven regularly and combine 60's sensations with fabulous sound, performance close to a Daytona but wuith 80's practicality.
     
  16. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2007
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    My 400i with full tanks and myself aboard weighs 4580#. It is not a sportscar.
     
  17. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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  18. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    Anybody home?!
     
  19. bane

    bane Rookie

    Feb 1, 2008
    6
    Croatia
    Thanks for your posts.

    It has been very informative. You guys are great, open-minded, can discuss every car without being biased towards your own car.
    I'm in no rush to buy this car. The plan is to buy it by the end of this year. This summer I plan to take a tour around Europe and to see and drive as much cars as I can manage. Talking about them is one thing, driving them is another.

    But if I decide to go with a full four-seater it's going to be a 365/400 (with carburettors and manual gearbox only!), or Lamborghini Espada.

    On the other hand, if I go with comfortable two-seater, choise is Montreal, and Khamshin stands as alternative.

    If I go with pure sportscar, it will be De Tomaso Pantera.
     
  20. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    The Khamsin (only one H not two) is much, much faster than the Montreal which is interesting but in many ways a very limited car.

    The 365/400 sound good, particulalry with the sidedraft Webers but you do feel that you are driving a sedan.

    The pantera is the most raw in the selection you mention but of course is alot cheaper than any 100% Modenese rear mid engine supercar.
     
  21. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    Having serviced and repaired several examples of both the Khamsin and the Montreal, I would really recommend the Maserati. Whereas the Khamsin is a well-balanced, good handling, marvelous sounding GT car, the Montreal is a design study, not terribly well suited for even infrequent use. My main business was Alfa repair for over a quarter-decade and the Montreal is basically an Italian Corvette. Decent but complicated motor with a fraction of the parts availability of the Maserati on an overweight chassis on a Spider/GTV (105) suspension. It'll go, but it won't stop and it won't turn. :) Oh, and BTW, the engine in the Montreal must be removed and partially disassembled to service the water pump. The Maserati V-8, especially the 4.9, is built tough and a pleasure to own and maintain. As always, YMMV. :)
     
  22. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    for the indy (maserati) a real four seat adult space road car. owning both 365/400i/indy. knowing this is a ferrari site, i am already in trouble. when the two marks are in the parking lot, ferrari will always come in first. on the road, maserati indy is my choice. good luck with your selection
     
  23. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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    I only wish those mid-70s Maseratis were a little better looking...i.e., the 400i shape has aged very well I think. Some of those Bertone shapes have not, and I'm generally a Bertone fan. (308 GT4, Jalpa, X1/9, etc)
     
  24. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    The problem is that the Indy feels much heavier more sluggish and is reallya fropnt engined car, heavy nosedwhereas the Khamsin is front mid engined car, the engine is very far back in the car. I was talking to one of the best mechanics in France recently Michel Bouthias he has big Maserati collection he just bought Khamsin 016 a few months ago, had owned an Indy and commented on how much more alive, agile the Khamsin felt and that was a 4.9 Indy the best. Also the Khamsin is not only a 4.9 -all of them, making it the only Maserati ever to be fitted exclusively with the 4.9 (even one or two of the 5000GT's received smaller engines and most Ghiblis Mexicos, Boras, Kyalamis and indeed Indy were 4,2 or 4.7) but it is dry sump as well which allowed a lower center of gravity.

    So the Indy is excellent for space, it has tons of room for occupants and their luggage, I have always said it is the ideal car for the man with a difficult wife who dislikes sportscars, but it doesn not handle near as well.
     
  25. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    khamsin is a better two seater road car. independent front/rear, of course gives improved road handling. 4.9 power is good. give me a little for a four seater pretty please. i have four indy's two 4.7/ two4.9's strong easy to handle. now to FERRARI! i find 365/400 easy to have work done at Evans auto in ohio. not any more expensive than V8 maserati, so far. V12's are more solid feel on road. everyone that looks, looks twice at ferrari.
     
  26. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    I suppose we all have different criteria for judging these cars and how they might suit us, a bit like assessing fine wines: ultimately I can only say follow your heart: we don't ask our accountants who we should marry do we:)
     
  27. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
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    #24 Pcar928fan, Feb 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Tell me about this car 400 fans...it has body colored front and rear bumpers. I really like the look personally... Also there is a white 400 for sale in Niles, IL...anyone know about that car???

    Thanks mucho!
    James
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  28. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    I believe I drove this car in 2005, it is an automatic with fuel injection though: the contrary of what you want.

    If that is the car it is owned by a man who lives in western Palm beach county, married a Czech lady and spends much of the year in Europe. It was in very good condition but he drove it very little due to his absence, so he was thinking about selling it.

    Still I would wait till you find a 5 speed carb version, I really enjoyed driving two 365GT4 2+2s!
     

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