Hello all, I am working on a 1972 365 GTC/4. It is a USA car with two distributors each running two sets of points. The Dinoplex (i think thats what it should have had originally) boxes have been replaced with MSD 6 Offroad boxes and the R2 points and microswitch have been deleted. I want to return the ignition to stock. We sent the distributors out for freshening. Previously, the wires from the R2 points to the external post were cut. The points have now been replaced and the dizzys are set up properly. The microswitch is missing, but sourcing a generic replacement seems easy enough. We have some UNIMAX switches coming which look close. Luckily, all the original wiring to the coils, distributors and micro switch is still in the car. The Anti Hop box is still present. The Dinoplex boxes are gone and the harness side connectors chopped off. The MSDs were wired to the R1 points and the coils. Both boxes are powered from the battery and are using the original Azure wire as switched ignition. The Bank 1 box wiring looks simple: Blue switched ignition, Green to the coil, and Orange to the R1 points. There is also a Dark Blue wire going from R1 to Anti Hop. Bank 2 has more going on. A Red wire goes from Anti Hop to the same pin as the Blue switched ignition wire. I am slightly confused about the workings of the Anti Hop box. Both sets of R1 points go to the Anti hop box and also to both Dinoplex boxes. The R2 points go directly to the Anti Hop. The microswitch breaks the ground to the AntiHop, switching from R2 and R1 to just R1, correct? And theres an rpm factor in there, to prevent misfires on overrun? Can I wire the MSDs to mirror the Dinoplex set up? I really want to use the dual points if possible, if only for my own enlightenment. Do the R1 points being wired to the dinoplex and the anti hop just provide a rpm input and will wiring the MSDs the same way cause issues? Thanks in advance, Jesse
That is a very interesting question. I have installed a number of MSD boxes on 365s but never trying to use R1 & R2. I would think it can be done, I just haven't studied up on the how. Keep us posted as to what you find. I will look at my wiring diagram and see if anything come to mind.
Thanks, I appreciate any help I can get. Looking at some of the info on dinoplex.org, it looks like the Red wire going from bank 2 Dinoplex to the Anti hop powers the anti hop. The Red wire is ganged to the Blue wire, which is 12 V switched power. I assumed both were powering the Dinoplex but it makes more sense that the Red wire would power the Anti hop. There is one other similar wire gang at the Bank 2 Dinoplex, i think a Gray wire, that i need to look into. I may hook everything up as it was before I disassembled everything, to make sure the engine starts and runs and fires on all cylinders. Then I can go back and hook up the wiring as it "should" be. I'll try to update this as I go. Thanks, Jesse
Why do you want the R2 points operational? All they did was retard timing for emissions at idle. Likely runs better without them. If you wanted to change your distributors to the 3 lobe cam vs 6 lobe and run two sets of points in each distributor like my old Daytona, that would work better.
My understanding is the R2 points retard the ignition by 14 degrees combined, for emissions purposes but also to keep the plugs from fouling. I have been told by the local independent Ferrari experts that the carbs and the idle can be hard to adjust without the R2 points operating, as the advance would be too high. I could run only the R1 points and lower the advance at idle, but that would limit by total advance at high rpms. I had the distributors checked and refreshed and one was found to be locked up and not advancing at all, so I'm not confident they were set properly to begin with. I also like to keep things as stock as possible, especially when I am unfamiliar with the car.
+1 -- Being more retarded at idle makes setting the carb idle airflow easier (a larger airflow for a given idle RPM) and less sensitive to small unrepeatablility of the throttle plates/linkages. As you noted, to run an R1 only set-up, and use an idle advance that isn't too crazy, you'd need to have the dist advance curve reset/recalibrated so that you get the proper advance at high RPM. (Couldn't find a distributor advance curve in the 365GTC/4 OM?)
I was just remembering how easy it was to set up my Euro Daytona's four sets of points once I built a little distributor test stand like the one in Angelo Wallace's WSM translation. But then my distributors and carbs were set up for that.
Wild... I think some of the Datsun 1970's motors I used to work on back in the 80's had dual points; dual points which I always immediately took off and threw into the garbage. Are you going back to the stock setup in order to bring the car back to a "completely original" sort of thing? Ray
The dual set of point makes the ignition curve a "three point" curve, so better fine tuning and much better bottom end management. The only reason to drop the dual advance is to significantly reduce the number of points (there are a lots!) to be adjusted, and simplify maintenance. Such simplification does not make the car perform better: 365 are grand tourer, not race cars, so they are more likely to be also used under "normal" driving conditions where a proper idle is a real plus. Bear in mind this is a big engine, the fumes can be quite obnoxious...
Originality is a goal, although we can only go so far, given that the Dinoplexes have been replaced with MSDs. This is the customer's first Ferrari. It's also the first one i have worked on, besides poking around on a 308. This car was "restored" sometime in the early 80's and has driven who knows how many miles since then. Somebody decided to cut the wires for the R2 points in both distributors and put in the MSDs, doing so questionable wiring along the way. I certainly don't know how one of these "should" run and I doubt the customer does either. Considering the state of the engine when it first came in, i don't think it was "as it should be". We sent out the heads, carbs, dizzys, headers to be welded and ceramic coated. I found the water pump sprocket had spun on the shaft and egged out the keyway. Every possible gasket covered in RTV and leaking anyway. The engine is going to run much better than it did, if only due to all of the systems we've made better. I am trying to take as much guess work out of the equation for myself, and i don't feel qualified to know where the factory blew it. So back to stock, or as close as possible, is my goal, if only so i know what this thing was supposed to feel like. And raemin, I agree. This is a GT car and the new owner wants to do some long distance road tours. Driveability is key. I want a solid idle, minimal pops, spits and farts, no flat spots and smooth spritely acceleration. And as few leaks as possible, but i will accept some drips. Jesus, i though aircooled Porsche engines were hard to seal.
A tiny bit of sealant of the camshaft cover (were the meet the timing chest), is all these cars do need. Old oil hoses can be leaky, and do have a specific size. If you are used to Porsches, these are the same type of plumbing... (make a search here on Cohline & Argus). MSD should be perfectly fine, these dinoplexes were simple boosters. Normally we try to shoe-horn the MSD electronic inside the Dinoplexes boxes.
I did get everything up and running. I got a UNIMAX micro switch off eBay that looks close to factory. Has the roller on the lever and everything. I made a small harness from the switch to the original 2 pin connector. Most of the original wiring was present, so I wired the MSD boxes up to that where I could. Everything works as it should. Thanks for the help, all.
