Hi, First time poster long time reader! I currently have a 355 which is fantastic but for a while now I've had a hankering for a classic Ferrari. I'm consistently drawn to the BB, there's just something so very right about them and I feel it's a good time to buy. The 365 is what tickles my fancy the most, I love the narrower clam shells and the rear light set up so that's what I've got my heart set on. The problem I'm having is that they seem few and far between so getting a feel for value is difficult. Can any of you knowledgeable bunch give me a rough indication of what a mint/ restored 365 should change hands for here in the uk or in Europe? I note that Boxers seem to be be tricky sellers here in blighty... Thank you very much in advance for your help.
As Geno said, > $300K any day of the week, the key being that we're talking about a bona fide mint 100 point (or very close) car.
very difficult to say here in the UK as they rarely seem to come up for sale.possibly worth asking around the usual top end Ferrari sellers to see how they view the market.
RHD or LHD? Curious what other opinions are, but it seems LHD go for more than RHD generally. $300kUS+ seems correct, can't imagine many sellers of nice cars even considering less. Be prepared for a lengthy search for the right car, and then be ready to pull the trigger or you will miss it.
Not in the UK, not at all. I sold mine (UK registered) for GBP75k two months ago and it was a good car with full engine rebuild, no rust, recent restoration. An 8 out of 10 car cosmetically, 9.5 out of 10 mechanically, with good history. I knew the UK market and knew that it was almost futile to try and get a decent price. Still p1ssed off about it, but what can you do? The UK does not understand this car at all. People want 512's, not 365's, even though they are very rare (only 58 imported into the UK originally) and if you've been fortunate enough to drive all models, there are many things to enamour you to the 365. Everyone reads Pistonheads and thinks that wet sump is a bad thing, that the single plate clutch means you can't drive it at all, that the engine is undriveable because it is too peaky, etc, etc.. There are always 3 or 4 for sale in the UK, and invariably they are all bad cars which are never driven (case in point is the Earl's Court car). Therefore people that don't know the model and the market will get confused and believe that a good car should sell for 75k. And because there are more confused people than knowledgeable ones, fiction becomes reality. Finding a good 365BB in the UK is difficult. But you won't pay over the top for it if you do find one. You should never have to pay more than GBP100k, and likely less than that. You will need experience to find that car, OR you need to buy an average one and just set out to make it a good one. That can be done, it is what I did. One other thing I will say: owning a 365BB if you don't have the right specialist is not a lot of fun. And there are lots of people in the UK who talk big but have no clue. My first specialist had several 365BB's as customers but he basically f*cked up my engine. Nothing was right about it, I found out when a knowledgeable person rebuilt it. Just giving a warning. I realise this post sounds bitter. But I am not (well maybe a little about the selling price). I found the right specialist, my car came right, and I had an absolute ball with the car once she was sorted. 365BB's are more fun than you can have without clothes on. Get one. I miss mine very, very, very dearly. Onno
Amazing ,it sounds there is the US service syndrome now in the UK also when it comes to servicing a Ferrari? When I was there going to college as a foreign student back in the days that Europe was not joined financially I recall excellent service with the old cars I drove then. I had a Cortina with a Lotus engine that run awesome and an old TR4 that broke down every other day and i remember service was awesome and cheap since i could not pay for much those days. Maybe they knew Triumphs and Fords better ......one thing I do remember that I thought made service better in Europe was the service shops would specialize in one brand of car,not like in the US ......Foreign car specialist ....or exotic car of the same....... I can understand the bias on the 365 in the UK People over there are performance oriented so when a car is improved upon they see the differences for what they are so they will take a later BB and make it pull hard above 7k rpm and think that dry sump and more than a single clutch plate is better . We are transitioning between the BB being a driver that does not depreciate to a collectors car. As a collectors car the features of the early cars versus later improved ones might not be a handicap as in most other makes it does matter, even more so when they become collectibles. An SV Miura versus a non SV is not the same...... Why should Ferrari be any different. In my opinion all the 365 has going for it is more age and that is why it brings more money. I do not buy the lesser numbers or availability as there are cars to buy and make them perfect. Ten years from now maybe it will be different as with other cars .... Even a Dino is there a difference if it is last year with flairs and chairs....or not? I still believe in Europe they can service the cars and have them run great and in the US is the opposite with more emphasis in appearance than in Europe. So you see perfect paints and detailed cars here that run like s*it and not so detailed ones in Europe that run like they should. Mario
Onno, that is interesting. I haven't kept up, but I thought you had 2 365 BB's! I didn't know you were down to none. I am a little surprised to hear your recent selling price, especially considering what I have heard the same car would go for in Japan. Your experience certainly supports RHD cars going for less, but 75k sterling is shocking. I can see why you would be disappointed with the result.
Hi I wouldn't say that that price of 75uk is indicative of the UK market in general - there are simply to few around to set an exact figure on. It's more a case of matching the right buyer with the right car at the right price. Mine is insured for GB 150k and that figure was reached after consultation with a number of independent dealers and several insurance companies. Sure that doesn't mean that I would get that price tomorrow but I'm not looking to sell, and I'm happy to ride the wave until maybe more people wake up to their true value when compared to Daytonas and Dinos (positively common in comparison!!). People are hanging on to their cars now (a good sign) so there are obviously fewer on the market, and if you have a particular want for a certain colour other than red, then maybe you are prepared to wait and will pay a premium for a certain car. One thing that people seem to be forgetting too - cars are often brokered/sold outside of dealers or web/magazine ads and by word of mouth!! In the meantime just enjoy driving the car!
And there are plenty of reliable, experienced Ferrari specialists in the U.K - you just need to ask fellow owners who drive the cars and don't keep them as museum pieces (not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's when problems start to develop I think we'd all agree!!) Doug
Thanks for all the info, certainly some food for thought. What specialists are most familiar with the bb here in the UK?
The other 365 is a restoration project which I just didn't feel up to since I'm still rebuilding my TVR Griffith (4 years and counting now), so I sold it to a very good mate who has started the restoration process. The UK Boxer went because I don't live in the UK and it was just insane to have a car over there and having to travel from abroad just to drive it. But I did have 6,000 glorious miles in her last year. I hope to step in again some day soon, but then with a LHD 365BB in perfect condition. Onno
Carrs in Exeter transformed the car for me. Although my Boxer was the first they seriously worked on, they did an exemplary job. The car ran silky smooth after their engine rebuild and I was fully involved in the process. Nice guys. Price was reasonable too. My specialist in Holland works wonders with carbs cars, but even he couldn't get the Boxer to drive as well as Carrs did. They have a carb guy who is retired and all he does is set carbs, just because he likes doing it. He really did a phenomenal job. I don't normally trust a classic Ferrari to a dealership as they are much more at home with modern cars than classics, but Harvey, their regular mechanic, is a magician. Can't recommend them enough. I don't like naming and shaming but I got treated extremely badly by a specialist in Kent where I bought the car, who have a reputation as Boxer specialists. My engine was assembled incorrectly, it had non-matching parts (wrong curmudgeon pins etc), 6 cracked cylinder linings, my car almost burnt down to the ground because of cheap plastic T-pieces in the fuel line and many more wonderful things. I would not recommend them. I really don't agree there are plenty of specialists out there. I have rarely seen a carb Boxer run as well as they can. Most people just do not know how to set the carb levels. Show me a Boxer that has no power gap at 4,000rpm when it switches injectors. Mine didn't have one! I was always told that wasn't possible, but it is. Onno
The 365 BB is a great car and very quick . Period road tests were as rare as the car. The road and track one in America showed a 7 sec 0-60 but the car had a slipping clutch and sand in the carbs....and these figures are often requoted in car mags today without reading the full article. My 365BB feels as quick if not quicker than my 512BB (carb). The single plate clutch and wet sump make no difference on the road and really only relate if you are going to race it. In much opinion a much better car to drive and look at than the Daytona that it replaced and 4x as rare with the same or better performance. £75k sounds very cheap. Sometimes cars just miss the sale radar. A Daytona sold in the uk last month for £150k and had been for sale for months...
Fosters are the people to talk to about boxers in the uk. Speak to Colin. I think they have more boxer experience than anyone in the UK. Tell him Nick with the very early 365bb and the llamas recommended you, he is a great guy and a very professional outfit. Nick
I think you mean Fosker's. In which case I could not disagree more. But let me bury that hatchet, it was 4 1/2 years ago. Perhaps they have learnt something in the meantime. Onno
Breaks my heart to hear these stories. Hopefully you'll dive back in. I have an older and newer 308 and really appreciate the differences. The "un-refinements" of the older cars make them interesting. But I wouldn't say either is better. I can see how the technology of the day used was considered best.
Thanks for the info guys, really great stuff. Your car sounded great value Onno, I guess these things always have a way of coming back.... But that gtc of yours looks gorgeous. I went to my local Specialist (keys Motorsport at Silverstone) who are no strangers to the BB, the owner has a 365bb which I sat in, that was enough to make my mind up! Absoloutely gorgeous car and something I need in my life. The hunt is well and truly on now. Are there any differences from the euro versions to the USA cars?
there were no usa cars. therefore, how each car that was brought into the us was treated is one of the key things to look for. many were awkwardly mangled with big square front and rear side blinkers, reinforced front and rear bumpers, many times the doors were cut open from the side and reinforced internally with tubing/frame reinforcement for crash protection. key for any usa car you inspect is to find one that managed to avoid these surgical ruins or has since been restored back to factory spec. but, none of the three boxers ever were built for the us market, far as i know the only market version specific differences were maybe yellow fog lights for france, but i'm guessing there
