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375+ # 0384

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by tongascrew, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Jun 1, 2008
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    Francis, I agree but the big question is what did Joe do with the money ?
     
  2. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
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    Very interesting, perhaps his funders have tied up the pay out (I recall at least one or two Europeans claiming they owned whatever Ford got via contractual obligations) because surely that would be enough to cover a settlement with the Clarks........
     
  3. Debc

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  4. Debc

    Debc Rookie

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  5. francisn

    francisn Formula 3

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    I was wondering that myself, buried in Ohio? ;-)
     
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  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Would be interesting to know what your thoughts are on this matter
     
  7. IXLR84FUN

    IXLR84FUN Rookie

    Apr 10, 2013
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    There was a lot that happened in the Ohio Courtroom this week. The Jury was ready to hang Ocean Joe high. He knew the game was over. So, he pulled his last hat trick by stopping the trial with a over the night filing of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy. That froze the trial, dismissed the jury and threw everyone under the bus that was owed anything.

    As Mr. Gottesman nailed his coffin shut, all the financial details got out from the mouth of Ocean Joe. He received about $2,300,000 from Swaters pocket. His son ( same name as Ocean ) financed over $1’000’000 in legal expenses from money he got out of a South Florida credit scheme that the SEC shut down .

    Kristie Kleve Lawson got $300’000. That left Ocean Joe with under $1M in mid - 2016. Ocean Joe started withdrawing $9’000 a day in cash from the ‘’Ferrari Prize’’ account, until it was empty . All this spilled out in the Court from Ocean’s sober and wrenching testimony. There was fire in the eyes of the jurors. Gottesman was brilliant in his explaining what Ford did by reeling in his victims – all of which supported him.

    I did not hear of any Europeans owned money by Ocean Joe. Classic car collector Charles Morse , Richard Scott the Pebble Beach Judge, the Clarks, many lawyers and a list of Ford supporters all will deal with the Southern District of Florida Bankruptcy Court case 19-10309-EPK . I am not sure if Tom Price was in the list of Debtors, but his name came into the case early on as Ford was working with him on some level I couldn’t follow.

    As F-Chat walked this entire case from Ocean Joe’s first introduction here in the first of the 375 Plus thread, it should well teach everyone a lesson in dealing with trolls and showing your cherished Ferrari ( or its history) to an internet stranger that you met at Cavallino. I feel sorry for Jacques Swaters who was shafted on a car he owned, paid for and restored. By just filing a lawsuit a guy like Ocean Joe could tie anyone up for years and come to a showdown in a bankruptcy proceeding when the suitor knows his game is over. What did come out was Ocean Joe evaded jail for some 18 years of schemes.Kristine Lawson faired no better in Court. She came off uncreditable .

    I think the star of the proceeding was Zack Gottesman a lawyer in the case, who showed his effectiveness in understanding the car collector world, the characters and how to win against a fraud in basically a car deal gone out of control.
     
  8. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    So, case closed!
    Does this thread comes now -after 164 pages!- finally to an end? o_O
     
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  9. francisn

    francisn Formula 3

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    Doubt it!
     
  10. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    All very interesting, IIRC the London court decided that funds were to be split between the Ohio and Belgian claimants and the car sold for 18.2 million USD. Yet if Joe Ford got $2.3 million, that left a lot of money on the table, to be dolled out to where? and that would amswer be a fascinating story in itself. I mean no issue if the rest of the money went to the Swaters family but you have to wonder if some of the other characters (of which there were a few) from this drama got a very large payday indeed.
     
  11. Debc

    Debc Rookie

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    Gardner got the other half of a 50/50 split Ford/Gardner had as decided by a Florida Arbitration. So Gardner walked away with the majority then Joe had to pay money owed to London Attorneys, plus Lawson and Kleve sister’s got 1.5 percent each out of Lawson’s share.
     
  12. Debc

    Debc Rookie

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    Correction, Ford filed Chapter 11.
     
  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    So the decision to push the contract settlement negotiations which had to be settled in London since that is what was stipulated was costly indeed. What a bewildering saga with more unanswered questions than answers.
     
  14. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Can someone simplify the end result? Who got what, where and when? This is all extremely confusing!
     
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  15. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    My understanding is that the car sold for $18 million, take away Bonhams commission of $1.8 mil., that left perhaps $15 - 16 million, what was left was split 50/50 between the Swaters and the Ohio contingent. A slight leap here but because Ford and Gardner signed a contract that with Gardner agreeing to fund legal proceedings, and because Florida arbitration ruled that any pay out would be split 50/50 between them based on that contract, that leaves $7.5 - 8 million for Ford and Gardner to split. Lets say it was $4 million each, Ford had one last gasp try to get all of the money by heading to the UK court and spent x on lawyers which supposedly left $2.3 million (if IXLR84FUN is correct and whatever his connection to the whole fiasco is) from which he had to give Kleve-Lawson an unknown amount for her share of the ownership AND pay out the Clarks for whatever the contract agreed to give them. According to a post by Ford, Gardner also received unknown funds from the Swaters for what could best be termed brokerage services, no idea if that is fake news or accurate........
     
  16. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Yes, but now it becomes....boring!
     
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  17. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    With all due respect, I disagree.
    This has been boring for years already.
    OTOH, I find so-called "Reality TV", be it about car/cattle auctions, some specific family, housewives or "noise-and-sparks" car shops also boring, but they appear to be quite popular.
     
  18. IXLR84FUN

    IXLR84FUN Rookie

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    The Conman , Hustler and Candy Crush Saga



    https://www.courthousenews.com/ohio-lawsuit-recounts-one-ferraris-long-and-winding-road/


    Although the Ferrari 375 is no longer the real subject here, the Saga continues . In summary, Kristine Lawson and sisters are launching against all the Ohio attorneys for not advising her correctly to the legality of the Ford/Ocean Joe contract. One lawyer Tim Smith Esq. is said to have played Candy Crush Saga on his ipad in the courtroom during the hearings.

    Joseph L. Ford III , our Ocean Joe, as the article mentions as ‘’a South Florida Hustler and Conman’’, has filed bankruptcy owing numerous FC posters in this thread millions with assets listed as an unrestored MGB and some Big Clams Shells . Shortly before filing bankruptcy last month Ford transferred his assets to his ‘’same-name-son’’ Joe Ford Jr, who financed the Ferrari fight to the London court. His son was part of a South Florida credit insurance scam that netted 85M before the FTC in case 17-cv-60907 shut it down. The FTC seized the most visible assets.
     
  19. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2012
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    Bill Henley
    The only advice Kristi Lawson ever needed was to keep her word, as expressed in the Heads of Agreement. Instead she threw in with Ocean Joe, and the rest is history. Most significantly, a succession of big paydays for a long line of attorneys.
     
  20. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
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    Art Corvelay
    Shame that the actual car is basically a rusted pile of unusable/unsafe parts in a box somewhere whilst an essentially brand new car now claims itself as 0384 after its 'restoration'.

    The actual car died years ago through neglect, just like these legal wranglings should have.
     
  21. francisn

    francisn Formula 3

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    AFAIR the chassis and engine are both original and those are the heart of the car. I can't remember about the transmission. Bodywork comes and goes on all cars of that vintage.
     
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  22. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
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    It would be VERY interesting to know just how much of that original engine is now usable and running in that new car given the years of utter neglect. The same applies for the chassis.

    From the published photos of this car over the years its appears nothing was realistically restorable, safe and usable.
     
  23. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Yeah well the Swiss dealer involved could have stopped trying to play both sides of the game for personal gain, the Belgian team could have not bought a stolen car, could have settled and could have not tried to pass it off as something they knew it wasn't. Everyone could have acted professionally and made plenty of cash money but they all chose to act terribly and what does that tell you about humanity.
     
  24. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2009
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    Ted
    Plenty of people make dubious claims about various cars. At least this one has an unbroken chain of custody and does not require a game of mental twister to make the facts fit the story. It is what it is and will forever be accompanied by the mystery, intrigue, and opinions ( of the learned and the ignorant). History will judge it accordingly. I’d be interested in your thoughts on other cars with even more dubious claims, but that’s a subject for other threads that deal with those cars.
     
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  25. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Good stuff and totally agree. Trying not to get too far off topic but my favourite recent example of the ship of theseus paradox is the Bentley that won Le Mans in '28 and is offered at Goodwood this weekend. It had one, two and finally a third new chassis, change of suspension, at least two changes of bodywork, three new engines and on and on. Its super cool in its own right but there is little or nothing that would have crossed the line at La Sarthe in 1928. The same cannot be said of #0384AM. It largely consists of the major parts from that car, bodywork excepting so........
     

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