It will be interesting to see how the courts rule.
Another period pic of 0384: http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1955/Sebring-1955-03-13-007.jpg And the 1955 Popular Science article about Jim Kimberly with some more period pics of what may be 0384 (not clear): http://books.google.com/books?id=biYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA116&dq=popular+mechanics+ferrari+kimberly&cd=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
Is F-Chat becoming some sort of obligatory part of these disputes? While I find them interesting there seems to be a trend developing where the parties argue their cases here.
Can you envision an attorney doing billable hours to a client for reading F-chat and arguing the "case" here? 15 minute increments for reading each post no matter how off topic or inane. And, of course, the person would have automatic noticification so they one read one post at a time. This would then be followed with billable time for generating a post that would have to take longer than the minimum billing increment. Is this the new way for the attorney to afford his own Ferrari? Jeff
Apologies if it appears I'm taking sides. It just smells funny. From the news article posted, it indicated that Swatters paid $625k in 1999 for clear title (and presumably the remaining parts). He obviously has proof that the check was made and cashed. She, in turn, claims the deal was for $2.5 million and that it was never paid. That strikes me as far too large a number given valuations in '99 and the actual loss Kleve incurred. With opportunists reported to have "purchased interest" in this car, I'd think that $625k went to one of Kleve's partners and it should be settled. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how the courts rule.
Values on truly rare and historic cars are the province of experts. Karl Kleve's documents and notes to the FBI show Kleve was getting offers in excess of $5,000,000 in the late 1990's. Attached is an early 1990's newspaper article showing Karl Kleve was getting valuations in the $3,000,000 range. Granted, the restoration to factory condition is a $100-200,000 proposition in that era, but do not lose sight of the fact that the rest of the value is attributed specifically to the historic significance, originality, and provenance of 0384AM, which IMHO was exclusively the property of Karl Kleve. Kleve retained many parts that were not stolen, as well as the Ohio title, and all claims to the stolen portion. Stay tuned for more info before making conclusions. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Can the legal documents be posted? Press articles and the like are a bit less concrete than those that would be put in front of the court. Jeff
No apologies needed really. This case is about a stolen 375AM Ferrari , likely the most valuable stolen car in the world now. It's about what happens when such a car is concealed under a counterfeit number ( 0394AM) , hidden from legal means of recovery abroad, and 20 years later a fraud-suit against the woman heir because of parts left behind in the theft ! It's about law, a U.S. citizen's rights and common sense. It's about a very honorable legendary race driver at age 84 coming into an American Court to attack a Ohio woman's legal claim on her uncontested inheritance awarded by her own State. It's not about hearsay - it is about logic and law . If Swatters settled in 1999 and was missing all the original parts why wouldn't he have gotten them in 1999 ? Why wait for Kleve to die and then come back to get the parts and the Vin plate? Why would anyone change a VIN number knowing the car is reported stolen under the real number ? I agree, it all smells.
I'm confused about the time line. So when exactly was the car stolen and when did it turn up in Belgium with Swaters? I read 1999 here but the car was already with Swaters long before that (for example it was shown at the FF40 event in September 1992). And what is the damaged body that is/was in the Swaters collection? Edit: please disregard my post. I just read Marcel's post and that makes sense to me time wise.
And the greatest ability for the firm is finding a way to do lots of things for different clients that each take less than 6 minutes so everyone gets billed for the same .1. Jeff
I don't mean to engage in debate (OK, maybe just a little) but after re-reading Marcel Massini's post, it would seem a lot of this has been explained. Massini said that the historians had all thought this car was 0394, which would lead Swatters to believe it to be (there's been endless debate here about chassis stamps). If he later made Kleve whole with a check and received a signed agreement for release of title, his heir would not have a right to claim a new title in Ohio as she did, would she? If Swatters was not made aware of those parts despite assurances otherwise, would he not be entitled to them later? I don't know. It's all just very curious. I don't get the sense Kleve was a very "together" sort of man. His daughter's positions would seem to be a bit questionable as a result. I may very well be wrong, of course!
The fact that his daughter is apparently in some sort of financial trouble also doesnt help her side of the story as simply trying to right a wrong.....
Someone ask me if I knew that car, and it's the same one that I sat in in 1956 and this year, a monster of a car. Poor guy that it was stolen from never saw it restored like I did, a treat for the eyes and the soul. Can't believe JS in taking a position on it - seems fishy to me. Anyway, hope it gets sorted as he's a legend and a gentleman. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Interesting. The pic of 0384AM in the field is from Gerg Pfeiffer's article at http://www.examiner.com/x-18816-Cincinnati-Auto-Mechanic-Examiner~y2010m7d18-Who-owns-the-Cincinnati-Ferrari. The other pics are on the net and of Swaters' exhibit at a show a few years ago. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
What I find SO interesting and engrossing is that there are still characters like this around! These are multi-million dollar hunks of junk. Re-buildable junk, but junk. They were likely acquired at a time when they weren't worth that much, but, now, there's so much interest given their value. Characters like KK (whom I had never even heard of despite being around the Ferrari community for over 20 years now) and WM renew my faith in the fact that hidden treasures still exist awaiting discovery! Sincerely, thank you. CW
Im curious what happened to all the other cars he owned. If they are still in a junk yard owned by his family or not....
It took his daughter and Dean Kruse many months to gather, organize, and finally auction off Karl's cars, many of which Karl had disassembled. It seemed that Karl actively "reverse engineered" by disassembling components and systems which he incorporated into the cars he designed and built. See the earlier posts in this thread about the cars Karl built and the mechanical / engineering talent he was, so much so he was recruited to work on the Manhattan project. At around the time of the auction, his daughter Kristi Kleve-Lawson, as administrator of the estate, was considering how and what legal action to take to recover the stolen Ferrari 0384AM.
Not so rare, in "that Era".....the story of John Shakespeare selling so many Bugattis in 1964 it filled a train, before his demise...
Karl's heirs kept the parts, including the distributor, trunk lid with aerodynamic headrest, engine hood, alloy drums, door with hardware, almost four complete sets of rims and tires (direct from Kimberly based on age and type), belly pans, monstrous riveted gas tank, etc., etc., etc., all dead original and historically significant. As Karl said in the newspaper article above: "It was partly dismantled. I had already taken the good stuff off it." That is why the lawsuit in Ohio describes the theft of a portion as the"stolen portion", while the portion of the car that remained in Ohio is described as the "remaining portion", which includes the Ohio title, and thus legal claim to the "stolen portion". That is also why Swaters lawsuit in Ohio complaint states: "9. Despite its damaged condition, the Vehicle retained an extremely high value as a collector's item . . . The more complete the vehicle, the higher the value." I am debating with myself as to whether to post the legal docs in the Ohio case now underway. It is as interesting as it gets. A stolen Ferrari . . . . worth millions . . . international interest . . . etc. For now, here is a pic of Howard Hively racing 0384AM on March 24, 1956, at Sebring. Image Unavailable, Please Login
