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430 4-1 headers and the power dip on the dyno once and for all...

Discussion in '360/430' started by Zed82, Jun 9, 2020.

  1. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
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    Zlatan
    As many of you know, there have been various reports that 4-1 headers cause a power dip between 4-6000 rpm but i have also seen reports of Fabspeed and Agency Power headers that don´t have the power dip on an untuned car.

    I have a full IPE-system on my 430 and i´m thinking about getting a tune mostly because i suspect the engine is running rich and has a significantly increased fuel consumption so i guess it wouldn´t hurt to optimize things. However i´m not sure if the tune will make any difference in the power dip. As someone in a thread mentioned, if you starting from a hole it´s hard to make up for the initial losses (power dip).

    What is your take on the subject? I need input from you that have experience.

    Reference material with respect to the initial poster:
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/dyno-comparison-with-stock-header-and-aftermarket.530482/#post-144873303

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/problem-with-performance-with-ipe-full-exhaust.581182/?fbclid=IwAR2wJ2IBVLWmaJBYrLfho4D0-TOevQEsOP1aJSGb0GFaF28fwLKOBoOw7CY

    Red = stock
    Green = iPE headers, 200 cell cats, iPE X-Pipe
    Black = iPE headers, 200 cell cats, stock muffler
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
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    Apr 26, 2018
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    I have the full IPE system with 200 cell cats on my 430 and don't see a pronounced power dip, but as I understand it comparing dyno results isn't always apples to apples for a variety of reasons. Mase Engg did an ECU tune on his dyno with the following results - Steve was wonderful to work with BTW, and I'm sadly a bit negligent for not having updated this thread over a year ago when the work was done. I hope this helps.

    (blue = before tune)
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  4. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
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    Great stuff! Did you notice any improvement in the fuel consumption? I guess the feeling is night and day power wise?
     
  5. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
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    I can't say that I've noticed any impact on fuel consumption and to be honest, I've never actually checked fuel mileage. Living where I did up until recently, there weren't many places where you could really let loose easily unless you had utter disregard for traffic, cops, etc. but when I finally got lined up with a C7 Vette from our car club at a traffic light I couldn't hold back any longer. The power difference caught me by surprise hitting the rev limit much faster than I expected in 1st & 2nd. All around, very happy with the IPE sound & setup combined with the ECU tune.
     
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  6. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,008
    #5 freshmeat, Jun 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
    Thanks for posting more dynos on this topic. I never bought into the 4-2-1 is better for mid-range argument; if it's good enough to go racing with 4-1 on F1 cars, it's good enough for my car.

    Also worth emphasizing, 4-2-1 layouts produce a sound that carries a deeper tone (I liken it to muscle cars) and produces more gurgles at low rpm, but once the car hits the upper rev band both 4-2-1 and 4-1 layouts produces a sound that is marginally distinguishable, with a slight tip of the hat to the 4-1 for being higher pitched.

    Either way, the gains in emotion and laughter > actual performance.
     
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  8. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
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    Zed, might be worth getting the injectors sent in for a cleaning and inspection. Some of them could be leaking. Worth doing at this age anyway
     
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  9. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
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    Thanks. Actually the car became very thirsty when I changed the headers in the first place. I get around 11 mpg on a tank. Between 2-3000 RPM the car is considerably more frugal but above 3000 RPM I always get 10-11 mpg.
     
  10. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    LOL. That’s because when you drive, you’re always at 6k RPM or more!


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
  11. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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  13. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
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    Meh, it just sounds like that but I'm really under 4.5K
     
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  14. mwstewart

    mwstewart Formula 3

    Feb 5, 2014
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    F430 - Stock

    Claimed data:
    Horsepower 490 Hp at 8500 rev/min
    Torque 465 Nm at 5250 rev/min
    Actual data:
    Horsepower 472.9 Hp at 8205 rev/min
    Torque 471.4 Nm at 5450 rev/min.

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    F430 - Supersprint manifolds, cats, and rear section

    Supersprint:
    - Manifold 391301
    - Front exh.R. kat 391302
    - Front exh.L. kat 391322
    - Rear exhaust 391334
    - Endpipes Kit 391326
    Actual data:
    Horsepower 509.4 Hp at 8300 rev/min
    Torque 501.6 Nm at 5050 rev/min.

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    F430 - Stock vs. Supersprint Full System
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  15. mwstewart

    mwstewart Formula 3

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    There are various things going on with the engine management to optimise torque including changes to the variable geometry inlet manifold, so swapping the manifolds ideally should be accompanied by a tune - not least because of the pre-cat removal - but there isn't anything wrong with a 4-1 manifold - in fact I think the power delivery much better suits the car.
     
  16. gatago

    gatago Karting

    Jun 28, 2019
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    Marco
    Very interesting thread!!!

    I've got a fabspeed header on my 05 430, no tune (although I think I might invest in one based off this discussion) but I will add that I can't feel any noticeable dip in hp/torque above as I accelerate up in a gear. Feels very linear.

    Also, unless cruising to work/grocery store, i.e. on spirited driving in the countryside, I operate in the 4.5-7.5 'ish range almost all the time. I don't track it so I have zero input there. But I naturally start my pulls out of corners around 5k. I don't have any formal training on tracks either, so I might be driving inefficiently, but instinctively that where I end up and feels like I'm getting the most of the car's performance.
     
  17. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    Mark I know you are the expert, but isnt the ECU supposed to learn to readjust to such changes, I know on my Boxster GTS when I got the original cat cores replaced by something more free flowing I was disappointed for the first 200 km but then suddenly everything changed after that (as I had been informed it would)
     
  18. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #16 RichardCH, Jun 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    fwiw my F430 Spider has Capristo 4-1 headers & actually a bench ECU tune (from 2008) from before I replaced the headers, it feels properly fast, throughout the whole rev range to the raised 8,800 rpm limit, strangely more so than my 430 Scuderia ever did, (noting that 430 Scud doesn't have cats in the headers, like the F430)
     
  19. mwstewart

    mwstewart Formula 3

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    Quite right, Richard; there are adaptions for calibration such as fuel trim which are learnt over time and can be reset if required, however these are designed to allow for wear in the engine over time and different operating conditions/fuel grades rather than something more fundamental like removing the cat and changing the manifold flow characteristics.
     
  20. mwstewart

    mwstewart Formula 3

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    P.S. careful with the raised rev limit. The F430 rods, bolts, and bearings are at their limit with the stock rev limit.
     
  21. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #19 RichardCH, Jun 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    well I did it 12 years ago .... and its only another 300 rpm... and its properly fast.. if fact the engine performance has never been this strong
     
  22. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    every manufacturer has a safely limit built-in which is usually at least 500 rpm
     
  23. RedTaxi

    RedTaxi Formula 3
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    And Nascar run 4-2-1 headers, high revs, go figure.
     
  24. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    normal super car guy just did a 430 video about ECU tuning fwiw
     
  25. Flea7

    Flea7 Formula 3
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    You mean the guy who's F'ed up his car numerous times......one being catching his car on fire??? no thanks..:rolleyes:
    Mase Engineering would be my only choice for a tune. Steve at Mase supports the challenge series.

    For those who want peak performance in our engines, ...if you can..., take the silly cats out and put in a tune. Get an exhaust system that allows you to silence the catless exhaust with a valve system.
     
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  26. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Im going to have my 06 dynoed - it has capristo headers and capristo 200 cell hiflow cats. I may do the ecu and then will dyno again.
     
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  27. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    NASCAR engines have 90 degree cranks, Ferrari engines have 180 degree cranks. Apples and oranges.
     
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