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4.9L fuel starvation. FACIT fuel pump failure?

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by 71Satisfaction, May 8, 2013.

  1. JulianMerak

    JulianMerak Formula Junior

  2. JulianMerak

    JulianMerak Formula Junior

    Great Prices! !
    I checked mine tonight with the new Malpassi and gauge and pumps can easily produce 7 psi so I think the old ones can stay for now. I have reduced the pressure down to 3.5 so fingers crossed
     
  3. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I have a friend going through this right now with his Ghibli and one thing I wondered about is the viability making a change to the system so that both pumps draw simultaneously via a common feed. I don't know if the position of the tanks and plumbing will allow for this though. It would have to be lower than the tanks so that the pumps wouldn't suck air at any time. That would certainly get you enough flow!
     
  4. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    On a Ghibli it would not be hard to do and pumps would stay in their existing position.

    - eliminate the T connection of the output side of the pumps. This T has an internal valve that isolates the two tanks. Instead install a check valve on the output of each pump and connect them using a standard T connector. This is in case one pump fails fuel will continue to flow to the engine and not the other tank

    - connect the fuel feed from each tank to a T connector. From this connector you go to another T connector that feeds the two pumps. No check valves are needed. This ensures that fuel is fed to both pumps until both tanks are empty.

    - disconnect the hot wire on one of the pumps and tape it. Run a jumper wire between the two hot connections on the pumps. This way both pumps run simultaneously in one of the dash switch position and will be off in the other position. This is useful as an anti-theft device; also convenient when you want to rotate the engine and not have the pumps running (ex: doing a compression test).

    As an added benefit the two tanks would always be at the same level keeping the weight distribution constant.

    Although an interesting exercise none of this should be necessary as these pump put out more than enough volume when working correctly.

    Ivan
     
  5. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Art
    May 16, 2015 UPDATE:
    One month shy of two years old and the "knock-off" fuel pump failed by leakage. Looks to have suffered excessive gasket swelling combined with oxidized case materials and a warped cover plate on the case - not great.

    So, I'll match the specs and order up a Holley pn 12-801-1. 96pgh @ 7.0psi. I'll take the opportunity to improve vibration isolation as well.

    Full report with pictures to follow.
    Should be back on the road by Tuesday.
    Cheers,
    - Art

     
  6. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
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    I put a new Facet on my Iso Grifo and it failed in under 200 miles, just burnt up, sort of scary. Facet replaced it. FYI Facet does make a number of different models that have different PSI. Aircraft Spruce has a good selection.

    I used two facets to guarantee enough fuel on the Grifo's 351 Cleveland, it was sluggish on hills. One in the back and one up front. Worked fine after that.
     
  7. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    In this case (Bora) it's not a mega horsepower vehicle and the original spec pump is plenty adequate. The Bora came with an emergency pump much like the later QPIII that's operated by a switch in the engine compartment right next to the coil. I have no idea why? In the enthusiasm of new ownership and the ignorance of my youth I replaced mine with a big bad ass Mallory pump which worked fine but wasn't really necessary. I did have a never solved high G left turn issue at the track where it would starve for fuel momentarily but I attributed that to something about the tank or possible float levels in the carbs. It never starved for fuel running flat out for very long stretches in Nevada.

    My reference early to a friends Ghibli (also not a mega horsepower vehicle) that did starve for fuel it was diagnosed to be a wiring harness deficiency because apparently the newer style solid state Facet pumps draw more current than the original purely mechanical ones. When swapped from one tank to another the problem would move but I could never get him to add an auxiliary wire as a test and he's since sold the car. Imagine, an old Italian car with insufficient wiring ... shocking. :D
     
  8. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
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    Imagine a Ghibli with only one part? My early car had

    dual brake boosters
    dual front brakes
    dual thermostats
    dual carbs
    dual clutch
    dual OHC
    dual plug heads (not drilled)
    dual headlights
    dual horns
    dual fuel tanks
    dual fuel pumps
     
  9. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Your Iso has a lot of those as well and last time I checked they both had more than dual carbs or does yours have dual quads ... :D

    IMHO the marriage of the water pump to the AC compressor by forced cable is far more questionable than any of those.

    I know about the dual calipers on the early ones and the "special" clutch but dual thermostats?

    The later twin turbo cars, Ghibli II, Shamal and QPIV which had the digital ignition with coil packs used a set of the same Marelli ECUs that Ferrari used on the F40. Maserati put dual temp sensors, knock sensors (right next to each other!) ... etc so that the two banks operate nearly independently of each other. Single throttle position sensor THANK GOD! :D

    I wonder what is on the F40?
     
  10. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
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    Don't get me wrong I think it's pretty cool it had all the dual stuff, could do without the dual clutch though, that was a PITA. It would have been easier to live with if it had a timing mark that could be easily seen too.

    Saw a very early Ghibli a while back up here in northern CA it was very different is many ways, no rubberized engine bay treatment, different hood, drop rear trunk ….. I think it was one of the first ten built the serial number layout was completely different too
     
  11. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    No drama…

    The Holley p/n 12-801-1 is installed and running well. Quieter. And the pressure is more constant/stable (I've got a fuel pressure gauge in the engine bay I can read through the rear window). No leaks. All good.

    Cheers,
    - Art

    The QC on the Chinese knock-off wasn't terribly good; note the warped cover plate. Gasket hadn't a very tight tolerance fit. The casing shows some corrosion in the gasket's track. Not sure why this is, I found online commentary that Ethanol can corrode castings (unconfirmed).
    [​IMG]

    Here is the new Holley in place.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Lots of stories about ethanol issues. Ask any racers who have run on alcohol fuels about corrosion issues.

    Maybe you should add one of the preservatives that claim they can deal with it to your tank before storing the car. I did that last year for two of my cars.

    Or ... get some alcohol free gas! :) I did that once too for my Jag. Definitely peppier and there was a significant mileage improvement on the highway in the single test I made.
     
  13. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Yes, well, that's the thing - fortunately there is ethanol-free fuel conveniently near my house, making it easy to use nearly exclusively on my classics.

    But that's only to say that the failed pump had less than average exposure to Ethanol in its fuel. This might still have caused the bit of corrosion. The rubber, however, might also have been affected - somehow. It didn't feel very high quality when I handled it. I can't offer a better observation than that - the rubber was a little too pliable in my estimation, soft. As if it was chemically affected, as can happen with LHM. But between the warped cover plate, and ill-fitment of the rubber gasket (which I could be conflating with chemical swelling since I was dealing with the rubber parts of a brake caliper rebuild at the same time), I think it's just an all-round poorly engineered knock-off. Stuart at MIE has been informed of the failure and won't be stocking more of the knock-offs. There was no significant cost benefit either. I paid $114.95 for the Holley replacement, plus shipping.

    Best wishes for an honorable Memorial Day Weekend.
    Let's drive.
    - A
     
  14. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    If it makes you feel any better I had to replace the similar flat rubber gasket on my Mallory fuel pump for similar reasons and that was in the late 1980s so I don't think I can blame China for that.

    Sounds like that pump is just poor quality. You'd have been better served with an oem style Facet pump than that "knock off" one though I think you already had some issue with one of those?

    Hope this is the end of your fuel pump woes. Go enjoy the car and lucky you with that local gas!

     
  15. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    The late Boras had two fuel pumps ... a Bendix (Ghibli style) and an AEG (Khamsin style). The AEG pump is much quieter than the Bendix and it is the one I use as the primary. MIE sells rebuild AEG pumps.

    Ivan
     
  16. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    That other pump is meant as backup Ivan, it's not capable of providing full delivery when you're driving it hard.
     
  17. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    Not sure where you got that information since both pumps are capable of providing full fuel delivery. Which of the two pumps do you consider the "backup"?

    Ivan
     
  18. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    It didn't work that way on my car.
     
  19. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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    #45 71Satisfaction, May 27, 2015
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
    When my Bora arrived at Dave Burnham's shop it had two identical Facets piped in parallel with a selector switch mounted on the coil bracket in the engine bay. No telling whether or not these were the original pumps. Dave and I checked this setup out and the switch toggled between either one of the two Facets. Dave suggested this was a "backup" feature provided by Maserati from the factory due to the short life span of electric pumps back then; when one pump failed, you just switched to the other.

    In my Bora's case, neither Facet pump could satisfy the demand of the Webers. We talked with its prior mechanic, MIE, etc and tried everything under the sun to eliminate the transient bogging down of the engine (see first page of this thread) to no avail.

    The highest capacity Facet pump didn't solve the problem. A helpful "aha!" moment came late one night when I conceived of observing the fuel return flow at the fuel tank neck under full throttle. Sure enough, the return flow stopped under full throttle. The carbs were conceivably sucking air into the float bowls = instant stall.

    So - the Bora now runs hard, strong and reliably with 100gph/7psi spec pump pushing through a 3psi regulator to the fuel rail and return pipe.

    MIE never mentioned Bendix or rebuilt AEG pump as options, but maybe those don't meet "my" spec.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  20. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    The Bora has dribble back into the tank from the front end of the fuel rail so as to reduce the possibility of vapor lock. :rolleyes: It didn't work for me but then I was running the twin blast furnaces art the time ...

    Perhaps your's has been futzed with and was dribbling too much?

    When I got mine it had the Bendix aka now Facet pump and a smaller one which I believe was solid state style and was shaped like a small cube. I had no fuel delivery problems except for the vapor lock in Denver on the way home and I went like hell a couple of times.

    Something is different about your car's fuel system Art. The current Facet pump in my Espada should be plenty capable of performing for the Bora as well. I had some extreme heat damage on the way home from that trip while I was leaving Denver and for that reason I replaced both pumps with the one Mallory and added a heat shield as well.

    The other possibility is that like the Ghibli the Bora suffers from a significant voltage drop in the wiring harness with the newer Facet pump?

    Bob S.
     
  21. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    295
    Hello---

    Reading your comments with interest.
    A couple of years ago decided to replace the Bora's 40+ year old Bendix as part of routine maintenance.
    Ordered Facet from MIE; which failed in less than 150 miles.
    I had to be towed back home.
    The old Bendix was reinstalled and everything went back to normal!

    Since then the perfect Bendix continues to run and run...


    PS Of course I always carry a Holley with me for that inevitable day!

    Regards.
     
  22. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    That about sums it up. Original red top Bendix = good ..... Facet = bad.

    Ivan
     
  23. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Then explain why these pumps work fine on Lamborghinis V12s which have just one of them?

    I witnessed a pair of them not work on a friends Ghibli. He went through two sets of them trying.

    Ivan, I thought we discussed this and your suggestion was that the wiring harness of the Ghibli didn't supply enough current for the newer style pump?

    I tried to get him to make a temporary, independent supply of voltage to see if that solved the problem but to no avail. He sold the car shortly thereafter and not because of that issue.

    Did you guys actually measure the flow of the pump?

    When I had a failure due to an enormous rust impacting of the pumps and filters which left me stranded on the road for hours and having to spend a night in a fleabag hotel where we didn't dare take our clothes off when lying on the bed and I can tell you I WAS pissed. But that wasn't the pumps fault. I measured the flow after cleaning it out and it didn't meet spec so I got another new one and that's been fine ever since.

    Just calling them bad doesn't add up.
     
  24. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
    1,387
    Monaco
    Hi Guys,

    A little update in that discussion.

    We have 2 Ghibli SS down there, both fitted w/ brand new Facet electronic pumps.

    After 1,200 km fo the 1st and 2,000 for the 2nd one, the cars experienced fuel starvation like pbs.

    Completely randomly.

    You can somewhere doing 20km and having 6 times the pb on the last 10 km, and no pb at all on your way back.

    I understood the pbs of fiability of some of these pumps.

    However, I'm not sure it's the only answer possible beacuse on Ghiblis, we have 2 pumps.

    And when we experience pbs, the pb is ALWAYS on the 2 pumps in the meantime.

    Statistically quite impossible.

    So, maybe a pb of compatibility between the Maserati electrical wires and the sensitivity of the electronic modern pumps ?

    At the beginning, we found for example that the fuel pumps switch could cause pbs to the pumps bacuse of their resistance and not enough power given to the pumps.

    At that stage we found 2 very basic solutions :

    - putting back the bendix red top original electric fuel pumps, or,

    - wiring successively each fuel pump directly onto the battery. Nort really practical, even if you put a switch into the car.

    This last solution put in evidence one thing : if Facet fuel pumps are defectuous, why should they run w/o any pb when directly wired onto the battery ?

    Thx for your kind attention.
     

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