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4.9L fuel starvation. FACIT fuel pump failure?

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by 71Satisfaction, May 8, 2013.

  1. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    It seems the new Facet pumps require greater amperage to run efficiently than the old red tops. One solution is to install a couple of normally open relays next to the pumps and use the current wiring to trigger the relays. Run a fused wire from the battery to the relays and connect it to the load side of the relays. Essentially you will be running the pumps directly from the battery but without having to modify the wiring harness, nor anything inside the car.

    Ivan

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  2. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    64
    Belgium
    Thank you for this very interesting discussion.

    During the restoration process of my car (a late Indy 4.9 equipped with two pumps that was stored during 30 years without running) one of the pumps has been replaced because it was not performing.
    Here is the original setup:

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    And then the current one (left and right are inverted compared to previous pic):

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    So the smallish original pump was replaced by a Facet Gold-Flo (dunno if it's an electronic model, I'll have to check).
    I will also check what is the larger remaining one (AEG or Bendix).

    Good to know about potential issues possibly related to the Facet pump or to the electrical wiring associating an electronic pump to a standard one.
    Will see how it works when the car is back to road in a month or so.
     
  3. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    We did not experience any pb w/ the facet fuel pumps for the 1st 1,200km...
     
  4. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    The wiring loom capacity apparently is a real issue with the Ghibli at least. I'm using one of the newer electronic style ones in my Espada with zero issues. Ivan's suggestion is the typical work around for older electrical systems to offload the current load from the original wiring and switches. It's a very good thing to do for fans, headlights ... etc.
     
  5. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    64
    Belgium
    You are certainly right.
    Not only is the original wiring and switches' capacity probably on the edge regarding these electric consumers but also ageing of the insulations is not helping.
    Renovation work to be considered...
     
  6. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    My Ghibli's got a full resto including of its wiring loom.

    New relays, fuses...

    Grounds too.

    The only pb being the new Facet fuel pumps.
     
  7. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
    1,402
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    Apparently, only Facet fuel pumps cause pbs, and only on some Maserati V8. Not all.

    No pb on Lambo or Ferrari.

    On my own, I did not even experience any pb the 1st 1.200 km.

    An dthen nothing for the 600 following.

    As suggested by my mechanics and confiremed by Ivan, I will try w/ relays.

    I was ready to put the old Bendix red top pumps back onto the car...
     
  8. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    Relays in place.

    No pb anymore.

    Will post pics as soon as the car gets back home.
     
  9. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Spread the word. This is a pretty easy fix too, it certainly isn't rocket science. I don't know why the new style ones draw so much more current ... they just do.
     
  10. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    The remaining question being too, how is it possible for the fuel decanter in the engine compartment not to be empty in the meantime...
     
  11. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    There's a language issue here I thin? Do mean the bowls of the carbs? If so there's not. It's just the nature of a carburated engine. It will always evaporate, gasoline is meant to evapotate easily and carbs are not a sealed system. Especially with a warm engine.
     
  12. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    No, the Fispa fuel pressure regulator.
     
  13. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    does it look something like this?

    [​IMG]

    What difference does it make? Plenty more evaporates in the carbs. Get a modern FP regulator instead. One WO a glass bowl. I got rid of that piece of junk on my Bora after a friends Countach nearly burnt up when one of the press-in brass fittings popped out of the pot metal housing and sent fuel all over his engine.

    What's your purpose with these concerns?
     
  14. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
    1,402
    Monaco
    That's it.

    I always restore my cars matching to the original...

    So keep the Fispa alive.

    I have no more concerns w/ the Facet pumps since I put relays.

    Thx to FChat.

    Will post pics this afternoon, since I get the car back today.
     
  15. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Even when the part is defective?

    You like your car? You might want to pull those brass pieces, thread the housing and put threaded brass ones in then.

    But why are you worried about the fuel bowl eventually evaporating after not driving for a while? Or is it leaking?
     
  16. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    1- WHen the part is defective or broken, I try to find a NOS one. O at least a very good condition one. A hard job but the car (and I !!!) deserve it. I found for example the "impossible to find" original Dinoplex for my Dino L-series in Japan, or the 206 front bumpers in Napoli.

    2- I try to restore as the original was. When really possible.

    3- I'm not worried about any evaporation into the bowl or any leak. I was just trying to say that the bowl was emptying when the electronic fuel pumps do not provide enough fuel anymore.

    Sorry for my poor English.
     
  17. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 Perhaps the fuel is siphoning back into the tank? I don't own this model of Maserati so maybe someone else can answer that.
    It probably takes a bit longer to prime the carbs with the bowl empty?

    #1 The Fispa pressure regulator on my friend's Countach wasn't worn out or old just very poorly made. Most fuel pressure regulators use threaded fittings.
     
  18. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    Here's how we fitted the relays.

    We added fuses too.

    And used 2 transparent fuel filters before that. Just in case, to check all is always OK at the fuel tanks exit.

    But as Ia lways do when I'm obliged to "improve"..., no additional hole, bolt or anything else than the additional parts needed. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    The fuses, the additional filters, the braided clothes tubings... Image Unavailable, Please Login :
     
  20. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Very good idea.
     
  21. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    Thx for the compliment !!!
     
  22. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    However, I would want to Thank the Group once again about the 2 remaining pbs we were quite blocked on :

    1- The fuel pump failure that we thought to solve too w/ relays (I had one pump only, provisonnally switched onto the battery directly so as to test), or going back to the original ones that still are in great running cond.,

    2- Finfing the right coil. That led me to contact a Top Bosch Specialist in Germany to restore and upgrade my original CDI.
     
  23. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3

    Apr 22, 2006
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    Since I suggested the fuel pump relays and provided the wiring diagram on post #51, I'll take your comments as a compliment :)

    Glad you were able to solve the problem without having to do any permanent modifications to the car. I, like you, like to keep things as original as possible and only allow "improvements" that can be easily reversed .... and definitely no wire snipping allowed ! I really hate it when someone drills a hole on the dash to install a switch that bypasses something that could have been properly repaired.

    I've seen many of the Fispa fuel regulators fail to properly regulate the fuel pressure but have never seen one come apart. My Ghibli has an original Fispa regulator and installing anything else would simply not look correct.

    Ivan
     
  24. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
    1,402
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    You can take as a compliment Ivan !!!

    And yes, me too, I prefer complicating my life and remaining original than making not easily reversible things.

    I also installed a manually operated switch for the cooling fans.

    Absolutely not noticeable, while using a Smiths lever and spy, and using only already originally existing holes. The relay is easily hidden.

    Could post pics if it can help anybody.
     
  25. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
    1,402
    Monaco
    However, I think it could be useful you posted onto your website the infos about the fuel pumps and SS coils as it's a very important one for our Community and as it's not always evident to think that everything has been discussed down there.

    Arguing too about the very poor quality of the Bosch CDI could be useful.
     

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