430 challenge centerlock wheels for Scud

Ok, had more discussions with some seriously 'hardcore' techinical engineers today regarding the ABS sensor issue. Unfortunately the guy explained to me it is a bit more complicated regarding the ABS sensor issue than first envisaged. At least on the 360 but I also suspect on the Scud and 430 you may have the issue too as I don't have the information about the exact number of teeth in a 430/430Scud wheel sensor. I think this is why you don't see this conversion normally done. Its not so straight forward as one would suspect...

Ok, the ABS speed sensor on the road cars has 32 teeth in the sensor for a full rotation of the wheel whereas the challenge cars had a higher resolution sensor using 40 teeth. These extra teeth give the ABS system more precision so it could respond faster on the race cars than it does on the road cars.

The problem with this ofcourse means the output of the sensor is indeed wrong for the programming of the software used in the road car abs computers. Top and bottom of this is this conversion has just got a whole lot more complicated...

Ok, here's the options we face to solve the dilemma...

Option 1:
1. If you have access to a F430Ch try swapping the abs ecu with the 430 Challenge ecu (and thats even that assuming its compatible with the rest of the computers, it may not be the case and sounds expensive/time consuming) - least liked option to test and could lead down even more rat holes. Least liked idea.

2. Split the 430Ch bearings (as pictured) and use only the mounting side from the 430Ch together with the original split bearings from the road car. The bearing side from the original 360/430 bearings (which includes the correct abs toothed sensor) and then put back together. This could work (and teams have actually interchanged bearings in this way before) buts again it is not the preferred since the 2 parts normally wear evenly together (flange and mounting point) so the problem with this approach is it leads to a wear mismatch would result in noisy wheel bearings until they bed in which could be quite a while. Not the nicest option.

3. Preferred option is to use the original ABS sensor from the original road car bearings. These can be removed and the tech I spoke to thinks there is a very good chance they can be directly swapped over onto the challenge hubs so the sensors output is correct for what the road car software is expecting.

Summary: I'm going to drop off a road car bearing and a 430Ch bearing to their workshop to get them to attempt to do this conversion for me. If this works its the absolute best option because your re-using your original ABS speed sensor so no issues with abs sensors triggering then.

 

One thing they also advised is that they always re-pack the challenge bearings with uprated grease so they last longer and resist wear better.

Apparently the factory 430Ch bearings don't use very good quality grease so they strongly recommend during the upgrade they are kind of uprated to this better grease. I don't know what grease they actually use but its something I'm going to get them to do too.

-T

 

Please let us know when you get the spec for that bearing grease.

 

Will try to find out.

Also once these issues are well understood and a known quantity (if the hub required modifying) I'm going to see if I can arrange a service with the race team so they can do this conversion for other people.

I personally don't fancy tackling the bearing conversion myself but they know what they are doing regarding bearings and have the experience to do it properly and safe.

Another way could be an pluggable 'inline' electric signal converter which steps down the 40 teeth signal into 32 teeth signal thus allowing the computer to accept the new hubs without change. I'll make some enquires on this route too as its easier and ofcourse a lot cheaper than shipping hubs around the world!

One way or another we will get this solved!

 

the guy who sold me the 430 challenge wheels actually suggested option 2 but my mechanic is just worried about whether the hubs can be put back together safely. he fears the fronts especially might split open at high speeds since thats apparently all thats holding the front wheels in place. trev im counting on u to show me the light!

 

Great thread, i think you will start a new tradition..

One question thou;
What if one have a nero Scud with gold stripes (and wheels), would these wheels look good if painted in gold?
Can't envision it, has any of the 430C's use that or same kinda color any pics?
But i think that color (gold) is too "chic" for challenge wheels, hope i am wrong.

 

430 Challenge ABS sensor has 48 teeth, not 40. For 360 series including Challenge race car and all street models such as Stradale and Modena all use the same hub bearing part #179070 and that also has 48 teeth ABS sensor.

Below are pictures of 430C and 360C ABS sensor. As you can see they are identical. So the info you were given does not appear to be correct.

Caveat: 430 road cars use a different hub part #194134 so possible that may use a different ABS sensor then 430C or 360C, but I some how doubt it because manufacturers like to use common parts as much as possible.
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Press fit of the two hub bearing halves are not that tight. That's not what's holding the wheel in place. There is a big nut inside the hub which screws onto the front spindle or rear drive shaft. This big nut is what's holding the wheel in place. For racing, we check this nut before start of every session to make sure it has not moved. Any movement usually suggest the hub bearing is on it's last leg of service life.

 

Thank you so much for the information! The power of the internet

So, from the posted information we've established;
1. 360 Modena
2. 360 Spider
3. 360 Challenge
4. Challenge Stradale
5. 430 Challenge*

All the 360 range basically used the same Hubs (sku 179070).

And now its appears that the 430 Challenge also share the same teethed ABS sensor too. [and also the same identical ball bearings themselves appear to be common between the road car bearings and the race car bearings giving the opportunity to buy a cheap road car 5-stud hub and re-use the seals and ball bearings to replace the worn ones in the challenge hubs as long (as the hub bearing carrier itself isn't worn). This appears to be a far cheaper way to re-condition your challenge hubs than simply buying a new one - the ball bearings themselves are not sold seperately from Ferrari they only sell complete hubs but road car hubs are a fraction of the cost of challenge hubs and the only difference is the 5-stud vs center lock fitment.]

*Since cwwhk has removed and verified the number of teeth on the 430 Challenge ABS.
**Although we haven't yet verified the magnetic resistance (someone will need to hook up a multimeter to do that).

Thinking out loud, but if it is indeed true and the 430 Hub signals are different to 360's then perhaps this Center Lock conversion will just 'work' on a 360 easier than on a 430. Perhaps the 430 Challenge uses the older hub abs signal sensors and starting with the 430 (but not 430ch) they used a different sensor.

I've been told the 360 and 430 wheel hubs are NOT interchangeable by a garage so it would be great to get a picture of a 430 Hub sensor. Maybe this is the reason why SSR is having a problem.

Perhaps also this is where the conflicting information on the number of teeth is coming from.

From the information we've been able to find out so far it seems like ;
1. F430 Coupe
2. F430 Spider
3. 430 Scuderia

All may use a different hub abs sensor (but not the 430ch which uses the original 360ch and 360 abs sensor?) Make sense?



Finally, for anyone assembling/dissassembling the hubs, here's the correct torques they should be done back up to (verified from the workshop manuals).

275 Nm Central pin nut
65÷75 Nm Bearing fastening screw
65 Nm Upper arm fastening screw
85 Nm Lower arm fastening screw

Also posted picture of the central pin nut (item no. 4 on the 3d diagram).

cwwhk or (anyone else) do you have a regular 430 hub bearing off a road car that we can compare too?

I think we are finally getting to the bottom this now!!!
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FYI...

1241g - Weight of the 4-bolt bearing carrier & ABS sensor & lead (not the full hub assembly)
2455g - Weight of the heavy duty center lock mount
------
~3.7kg [8.1 lbs] - Total weight PER hub bearing carrier from F430 Challenge.

This excludes the weight of the center lock nut.

For comparison with the 5-stud version we should weight that too [with its 5 wheel nuts] and finally the alloy wheels for a direct comparison of unsprung weight. Admittedly the Challenge wheels are 0.5" wider at both front and rear than regular CS wheels but this does allow running of even wider rubber as an option.

 

omg seems we're close to nirvana. sorry i forget- do the 430 ch bells work on the cs also?

 

Trev- Remember on the wheel change, you are also changing rotational inertia, which affects acceleration and deceleration, as well as unsprung weight and total weight. The closer the rotating mounting hardware is to the center of the wheel, the lower the rotational inertia, which is a funtion of the weight and radius from the center of rotation, and the better acceleration and deceleration will be. Even if the five bolt system came out slighly lighter, the decrease in rotational inertia from the center mount will offset that to some degree in overall performance.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

ABS ECU Pin out

Pin Description
---
01 Speed sensor (rear RH), Analogue input
02 Speed sensor (rear RH), Analogue input
03 Unused Pin
04 Speed sensor (front RH), Analogue input
05 Speed sensor (front RH), Analogue input
06 Speed sensor (front LH), Analogue input
07 Speed sensor (front LH), Analogue input
08 Speed sensor (rear LH), Analogue input
09 Speed sensor (rear LH), Analogue input
10 Unused Pin
11 K diagnosis line, Communication line
12 L diagnosis line, Communication line
13 Unused Pin
14 Brake pedal switch, Digital input
15 ECU power supply +15 (key), Power input
16 Hydraulic unit power supply, Power input
17 Hydraulic unit power supply, Power input
18 Hydraulic unit power supply, Power input
19 ECU Power supply, Power input
20 Unused Pin
21 Unused Pin
22 Unused Pin
23 Unused Pin
24 Unused Pin
25 Unused Pin
26 Unused Pin
27 Unused Pin
28 Unused Pin
29 CAN Line, Communication line
30 CAN Line, Communication line
31 Unused Pin
---

SD2 Errors
LH FRONT ABS INTAKE VALVE
RH FRONT ABS INTAKE VALVE
LH REAR ABS INTAKE VALVE
RH REAR ABS INTAKE VALVE
LH FRONT ABS EXHAUST VALVE
RH FRONT ABS EXHAUST VALVE
LH REAR ABS EXHAUST VALVE
RH REAR ABS EXHAUST VALVE
SOLENOID VALVE INPUT
SPEED SENSOR FOR LH FRONT WHEEL: NO SIGNAL
SPEED SENSOR FOR LH FRONT WHEEL: ITERMITTENT SIGNAL
SPEED SENSOR FOR RH FRONT WHEEL: NO SIGNAL
SPEED SENSOR FOR RH FRONT WHEEL: INTERMITTENT SIGNAL
SPEED SENSOR FOR LH REAR WHEEL: NO SIGNAL
SPEED SENSOR FOR LH REAR WHEEL: INTERMITTENT SIGNAL
SPEED SENSOR FOR RH REAR WHEEL: NO SIGNAL
SPEED SENSOR FOR RH REAR WHEEL: INTERMITTENT SIGNAL
TOOTHED WHEEL TOOTH
SCAVENGE PUMP
BATTERY VOLTAGE
FOOT BRAKE PEDAL SWITCH
ECU ERROR
PRIMARY VALVE 1
PRIMARY VALVE 2
PILOT VALVE 1 (USV1)
PILOT VALVE 2 (USV2)
CAN
ENGINE MAINTENANCE MESSAGE
TEMPORARY FAILURE
CAN - DASHBOARD FAULT MESSAGE
CAN - ENGINE REVOLUTION FAULT MESSAGE
--
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If you can hook up an SD3 Computer to your car I'm guessing it will be showing;

TOOTHED WHEEL TOOTH
The error is set when an incorrect number of "teeth" or an incorrect distance between the "teeth" is detected on the toothed wheel of one of the wheel speed sensors.
--

Please post pictures of the sensor so we can compare!!

Cheers,

Trev

 

Terry, valid points indeed.

 

Let us know how you get on. They may look similar but are they identical? I'm told they 430 and 360 wheel bearings are not interchangeable so what is the difference which stops them from working? If its not the teeth what else? Very strange.

Are you using the sd3 to pull faults? If so what ones are being logged?

 

Any news?

Here is the picture of the socket to fit the center lock nuts..

Its a sst, specialist service tool you can order direct from the dealer, the part number is AV3848.

Plus an added bonus picture to illustrate the width of those enormous rear wheels next to 2 cans of Polish Tyskie beer lol !


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SSR, Another question is where did you get those BBS stickers from? I need 2 sets...

Thx,

Trev