430 MT shifting issues | FerrariChat

430 MT shifting issues

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by blackbolt22, Jul 28, 2017.

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  1. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

    Sep 25, 2007
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    Mr. Anderson
  2. hessank

    hessank Formula 3
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    Mine did and it was the TOB.
    Was your TOB replaced with a new one (I know you said clutch parts were replaced)?
     
  3. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    Pretty sure everything with the clutch was replaced. I will double check with my mechanic though. Thanks.
     
  4. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    An internal gearbox problem is possible. They really don't like having coolant mixed with the oil. There are a few things to check before tearing into it.

    If the shifter/linkage works when cold I doubt it's your problem.

    What clutch parts were installed? Some aftermarket clutches are problematic. If it isn't OEM, it could be your problem.

    Try bleeding the clutch hydraulics again using a pressure bleeder. A small air bubble could prevent the clutch from releasing completely. If it's dragging even a little, it can make shifting difficult. When things heat up, it could be worse. I expect this might fix it. If necessary, it could be possible to adjust clutch pedal travel a little to give just a little more stroke.

    What kind of gear oil are you using? Have you added any friction modifiers? If so, how much?
     
  5. radlu

    radlu Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2005
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  6. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    #6 blackbolt22, Jul 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
    Thank you for your help. Really appreciate it.

    The problem existed before the clutch replacement. The clutch wasn't that worn. I was just desperate to correct this problem so I had it replaced as well. Pretty sure we used aftermarket parts from Ricambi.

    I'm dropping the car off again in the morning for TPMS problem. I will get answers to the other questions. I know we've been using Redline oil for years.
     
  7. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    Redline shockproof gear oil or something along that line. Friction modifiers added. Entire clutch was replaced. Flywheel, plates, TOB, everything. Slave cylinder, heat exchanger was damaged and leaking fluid. Maybe as suggested that caused damage internally.


    I was mistaken. The cables and linkage move freely even inside the transmission when the car is hot. He disconnected the cables and removed side panel from transmission. Everything moved freely.

    He thinks it's an internal transmission problem. I mentioned pressure bleeder and didn't get much response. l guess my next step is F of Ft Laud for a diagnostic. It's time for a fresh set of eyes to look at it. I hope there is a rebuild kit available.

    I know it's an almighty Ferrari but it's still just a manual shift transmission.
     
  8. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #8 2NA, Aug 1, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
    Before pulling the gearbox and spending the big money. Make sure that the clutch is releasing completely when it's hot. If it is dragging, even a little (especially if there's a bit too much friction modifier in the gearbox), it will be difficult to shift. As things heat up, it's likely that things expand and your clutch isn't releasing enough.

    A little more clutch pedal travel might just do it.
     
  9. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    #9 blackbolt22, Aug 3, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
    Thanks Tim. I passed this info along. Appreciate your help a lot.

    Also. What kind of gear oil and friction modifier would you recommend? I'm going to try everything before the transmission comes out
     
  10. RedTaxi

    RedTaxi F1 Rookie
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    A lot run Redline 75w90ns as I did. (no modifier) I Just switched to Redline MT-90 which is a straight manual trans oil. Seems good. I would try that before digging deeper.
     
  11. Michael Foreman

    Jul 11, 2017
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    Michael Foreman
    I agree with 2NA as far as checking clutch drag/bearing issues spinning the main shaft.

    I would suspect an internal gearbox issue with one of the selectors, selector rail, or possibly a shifted or worn bushing.

    Having an oil sample from the gearbox could tell you a lot.

    Interested in what the final outcome is...
     
  12. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    Thank you. My mechanic agrees. He cannot see anything other than internal problem now.

    If you recall the heat exchanger was bad and coolant was mixed into the transmission oil. That was corrected. I'm thinking the damage occurred then. This was discovered last spring.
    I have a line on a brand new transmission and I think I'm going for it. I cannot see how it can be anything else at this point.

    Master cylinder system has been bled again and again. Cables move freely. I can't see how an inch or so of extra clutch play at the pedal can help. Its too stiff when hot

    Or should I pull transmission and take it to a transmission specialist? I just want it fixed. New transmission is $15K which isn't bad. But I would rather rebuild mine if possible. Kind of lost on what to do here.

    Taking it to F of Ft lauderdale will cost more than 15K for sure.


    I will keep everyone posted. Thanks again.
     
  13. Michael Foreman

    Jul 11, 2017
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    Michael Foreman
    We have rebuilt many gearboxes and trans-axles over the years, very often a damaged component can be found easily, fixed, and upgraded with little cost compared to blindly buying another unit.

    I was in your exact position a month ago for my 911 trans-axle. I decided to rebuild the one I had while replacing the broken thrust washer, and ordered a stronger updated gearbox. It won't be correct to my car but strength is more important to me than matching numbers in this build. I will be selling my rebuilt unit to offset the costs of the upgraded transmission.

    FYI my replacement thrust washer cost $36 compared to $4,000 for a newer box. I was expecting a lot worse than just a washer, and the rest of the guts looked immaculate.

    I think a tear-down would be in your best interest - checking bearings, gears, wear spots along the way, if they all look good then rebuilding might be the obvious answer.

    Best of Luck
     
  14. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    Thank you Michael. Very good advice. I appreciate it.

    This feels like the best decision. I'm going to pull the transmission and get it checked out.

    I'll let you know.

    Best..
     
  15. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Not play, travel. An inch is a lot! A half inch more might be enough.

    It would only take 20 minutes to try it before taking everything apart and spending $$$.

    It's your car.
     
    blackbolt22 likes this.
  16. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    Thanks Tim. I will print out everything. I asked in the FL section and found a Ferrari trained technician locally who is going to take a look.

    You know cars way better than me. Thanks again. Hopefully a simple fix.
     
  17. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    At last. Here's the problem. It makes sense. Ferrari trained independent repaired it . I pick up tomorrow morning. Thanks for all the advice.




    CONCERN Customer concern about stick shift get harder when vehicle takes normal temperature.
    1 0.00 0.00T
    Labor Removed and reinstall gear box
    1 1,800.00 1,800.00T
    Labor Performed drive test and duplicated customer complaint. Disconnected shifter cables and test it! Ok at this time. Removed internal transmission selector to check selection and engagement movements, no found faulty parts. Performed phone call to customer, to request permission to open gear box, customer agree and approval over the phone. Removed gear box, and opening on the bench, removed all gears shaft and check for all tolerances between gears, all ok at this time. split all gears one by one. Cover all parts with parts cleaner overnight. Dry and recheck for every single component. Found scrollable for synchronizer 3RD and 4TH gears with rust on it. Replaced part for use one in good condition, and reinstalled all gears on the shaft back together, lube and reinstalled shaft with gear inside the box. Reinstalled transmission in the car, fill gear box with new Shell Spirax 80W90 and replaced oil for E-Diff bleed clutch pedal and reinstalled all components back. Performed road test to verify normal operation after engine get normal temperature of function. Car drives as manufacture specifications after repair.
    1 3,960.00 3,960.00T
    Part Scrollable of 3rd and 4th
    1 190.00 190.00T
    Part Gear box oil Shell Spirax 80w90
    1 60.00 60.00T
    ACTIVITY QTY RATE AMOUNT Part E-Diff oil 1 75.00 75.00T Shop Supply 1 45.00 45.00T car wash:car wash 1 0.00 0.00T
    2008 Ferrari F430 Spyder 24162 miles
    **customer pay $1800with check #2402 on 8/24/17 new total balance due $4697.80**
    SUBTOTAL 6,130.00 TAX (6%) 367.80 TOTAL 6,497.80 BALANCE DUE $6,497.80
     
  18. witkop69

    witkop69 Rookie

    Aug 19, 2013
    17
    I had the same issue and after all the above mentioned suggestions I had to replace the box...
    After 5+ years of shiffting issues I am glad to have this sorter
     
  19. hessank

    hessank Formula 3
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    Happy you got this all sorted out. It's been a while since this problem started. Congrats
     
    blackbolt22 likes this.
  20. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    I forgot to mention that Danny at Modena Eurosports in Ft Lauderdale diagnosed and fixed the problem. He is Ferrari factory trained .Now he has his own shop. Highly recommended.
     
  21. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    I'm reviving this thread because the problem is worse than ever. It never really went away. It was about 60-70 % better after I picked it up in 2017 but as the years went on, it got worse and worse. Trans was removed and completely disassembled . Every part inspected to tolerance and one or two were replaced.

    I have barely driven it the last 5 years because it's so annoying to drive in present condition. 4 months ago shifter cable snapped bc transmission was frozen up and would not shift. I parked it. We sold our 458 last week, so now I'm trying to repair this one. We try to take this one out to enjoy but I get annoyed every time I drive it. Transmission is basically inoperable after 15min. First 15 are gold.

    Question. Can I buy a used F1 trans and use the guts of it in my MT unit? I don' think my transmission can be repaired.

    Everything has been replaced and checked and rechecked again and again. EVERYTHING. And I mean everything. People from all over the world have weighed in on this issue and apparently it cannot be resolved. I am going to repair or replace this transmission within 6 months or I am going to set the ***** on fire. I'm not kidding. That's how fed up I am. I bought my dream car in dec 09 and it functioned properly for about 2-3 years.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f430-mt-shifting-issue.532275/
     
  22. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Have you replaced the shifter bushing that is located on the actual lever you change gears with? Hill engineering makes a replacment bushing that replaces the plastic one. This is a very typical symptom of that bushing being broken.
     
  23. blackbolt22

    blackbolt22 F1 Veteran

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    Yes. Twice. Used Hill's both times. That was first thing that was done. Replaced again in 2017, just to make sure.
    Every conceivable problematic part has been replaced.
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #24 Rifledriver, Feb 21, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
    Seen that before, same symptoms anyway. . Never had to take gearbox out to fix it. The 1-2 and 3-4 shift forks slide on a rod. The bushings can bind on the rod especially when hot and when you shift the fork or forks will not move independantly of the rod. It is as though you are trying to engage 2 gears at once and the shift interlocks will not let that happen. Easy fix.
     
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  25. DBomb117

    DBomb117 Formula Junior

    Jun 20, 2019
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    Dimitriy
    He did state that the heat exchanger failed previously, do you think latent corrosion is causing it to bind?


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