430 vs 599

short answer: go drive them both and pick which the one that excites you more.

long answer: i went in to buy a 430 spider and walked out with a 599. it fit what i wanted in a first ferrari much better. after more than a year of ownership i'm very happy with my decision (but i did add a 328 to my garage). the 599 is a great GT. the 430 is arguably in a better place on the depreciation curve, but i think its stuck between the virtues of the 360 and the 458 - neither here nor there.

i do have a friend who got the 430 and returned it after only a month. don't know anyone who did the same with a 599.

happy hunting!

 

I rode in an '08 today with 16K miles serviced exclusively by F dealer. My daily driver is MB CLS 55 AMG (supercharged engine with air suspension) which rides firm in comfort mode. I am ready to write a check for this 599 in the gun metal color they call Grigio with Cuico interior except for the following: The ride is harsh even in wet mode. I would want to drive in sport but don't think I could put up with it. Secondly, I saw the car on the lift and was shocked the sway bars are tiny compared to my AMG (my front sway bar is 1.33" diam. with no lean and no understeer).

Apparently Ferrari utilizes very stiff springs and small diameter anti roll bars instead of softer springs and fat sway bars which is a serious design flaw IMO. I hit a stretch of terrible road on the way back from the dealer and the individual traveling with me said "could you stand this all the time"? NO.

The new Mercedes S coupe does 0 to 60 in 3.9 sec and rides like a dream- but it is not as cool. If this wasn't a Ferrari I would dismiss this as a POS were in not for the Prancing Horse. Is that what it comes down to? We are supposed to accept poor design and even poorer quality components to drive a "cool" car? (Of course the Delphi shocks are starting to leak in a car with 16k miles? Can't wait to buy a car where the radiator corrodes and/or the ball joints fail prematurely.

I am one very disappointed person today... I also hated the the MB SLS Gullwing coupe- rode like a Corvette.

 

I've had both. 599 is a lot quicker and a lot more comfortable, luxurious, sounds better. I don't really see how they cost more either. You can get an entry level 599 close to $150k now. I also feel safer in the 599, having a 12cyl leading the way rather than the boot.

 

To my mind the 430 is more of a traditional sports car, whereas the 599 is kind of line a mash up of a M6/AMG car and a Ferrari and is certainly harder but I don't think it rides that hard.

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I suspect that car you rode in had some kind of problem. Everyone who has ridden in my 599 comments- pretty comfortable for a Ferrari.

IMHO the 430 is a bit closer in its more mechanically visceral personality to your 550 than the 599. The 599 is a bit more aloof at sane speeds. BUT the 599 is a much better highway car and if you take them to the track and you work your confidence and experience up on the 599 you will find the car is surprisingly nimble for such a large car. However, you have got to respect the power - if you get on it too early it will bite.

Also agree with Bob's comments.

 

If I had to guess, the shocks are bad causing and/or contributing to harsh ride. I agree ride comfort is subjective.

However, this calls into play the fact the basic car has many design faults. My son said the 430 rides much better than 599. I would have thought the opposite- GT car has ride quality at a sacrifice in handling. That means that both 599 @ F dealer, one with 8k and other @16k both have bad shocks? I was planning on driving this car as a DD. They only want $148K for it.

My '06 AMG has 123K miles with original air struts and still has the original coolant (I know what you are going to say- but MB claims doesn't need replacement- car runs 87 degrees C in hot summer in FL). I've had 2 gallon jugs of coolant sitting on floor for years.

What do I do about a "cool" car then? I'm stumped...

 

A lot depends on what your going to do with the car.

If your a track nut, I would definitely go with the mid-engined F430 WITH carbon brakes.

Otherwise, the 599 represents a better experience for the open road.

Good luck.

 

You should probably start your own thread in the general discussion area. You're not entirely wrong obviously. Though I can tell you your son needs broader experience in both cars as I entirely disagree with him that the F430 rides better. I think the answer to your question, and I don't mean this the way it may come off so please don't take offense, but if looking cool is all that matters to you, you probably don't have the gumption to be a happy Ferrari owner. There's a certain masochistic love we all share for the marque. To be a ferrari owner, you have to expect dumb **** like receding dash leather, consumable tie rods, imperfect paint sometimes. I'm on my 4th so don't think I'm jumping on the anti-ferrari bandwagon with you because I'm not. I love my 599. But it's certainly about $150k car with $200k in marketing tacked on. That might even be kind. EDIT: I should point out that I'm only saying in comparative value. The price of a Ferrari is also obviously driven by their considerably higher cost in production per unit, read exclusivity. Really exclusivity is a big part of the value, driving something not everyone else could have. Hope my fellow owners don't skin me alive for saying all this, but it's pretty much the case. The problem is though, you see, I love Ferrari. I love the lines, the interior, the sound, the heritage. I love Ferrari. You don't. Good luck with your search. Maybe an MP12, a Gaillardo, get on the waiting list for a 2017 Ford GT, pick your poison. I think you've already decided you don't love Ferrari.

 

I don't take offense at anything you replied but I do have to correct you on certain points you made. I went to the F dealer today prepared to write a check for a particular 599 so I think that indicates I don't hate Ferrari. In fact my Ferrari history goes back to the sixties with Al Garthwaite (Luigi Chinetti's financial partner). I still have a box somewhere full of Prancing Horses, Ferrari lettering, front badges, etc. from him.

I love the beauty of the 599 and that's what I mean by "cool." I don't want to be seen as cool driving a Ferrari (many people consider driving a car like that to be a ******). I mean I want a car that you turn around and look at when you park it.

My son drove both cars and told me the 430 rode better. That's his opinion. I would not buy a 430 but would consider another mid engine car if so inclined. I prefer fast front engined cars.

If the problem with harsh ride (with these 2 599 cars) is the shocks, I am not prepared to replace shocks every year with the amount of driving I do.

I looked closely underneath the 599 and was underwhelmed at the overall quality and design of the car. I took a course in vehicle dynamics with Dave McClellan sitting next to me. The reason I am so disappointed is I had virtually eliminated most other candidates and my experience today left me with the realization the 599 was probably NOT worth the grief I have read about on this forum- thus frustration and disappointment. My last V12 was a BMW 750iL I drove relatively trouble free for 180K miles. I love V12 engines!

Lastly, gumption doesn't have anything to do with it in my case and money is not a consideration in this purchase as I'm a semi-retired Wall Street derivatives trader. This is not even a week's take...

 

All I can tell you is I have almost 20k miles on my 599 and I change fluids annually and have frequently used the car as a DD- even in _gasp- the rain sometimes (not frequently but its happened). It makes a good DD -- for a Ferrari...

FX, I suspect the cars you've looked at have various issues. I doubt you would have to replace shocks every year, but you might have to resolve some issues of cars that sit. My 599 gets driven. No issues aside from a wonky battery tender and a parking sensor that got nailed with road debris, malfunctioned and then that caused the dash to light up like a Christmas tree. An easy fix with a new parking sensor.

Bob's comments are spot on, as are apparently yours.

Which model/ year 599 did you test drive?

Bob, I have to say, I think the 599 is a bargain at the current prices. You're getting the heart of a supercar (Enzo), a still high tech V12 with 615HP, in a gorgeous wrapper. Hard to argue with that IMHO.

 

I agree the F12 is a better daily driver- supposedly more comfort and I bet improved build quality. But, and this is just me, I prefer the 599s looks and she's got more than enough power. Especially if you pull the secondary cats.

 

sean - one point on the last line of your post. my only regret is that i do wish i had known-about / hunted-for a 3-pedal 599 instead of the f1. so if you see one, take the time to check it out. and if you hate it, let me know and i'll buy it and sell you my 599.

happy hunting!

 

fxTrader - You love the front engine V12 and also have had an understanding of Ferrari for many years. You were about to buy a 599 cash but you don't like the drive quality and you are at odds with the design of the suspension. Also, $150K is just one weeks take.

Solution - go back to the dealer and drop 3 weeks pay on an F12 and put up a hundred posts on how great a car you have and why you waited so long! You will park it and then turn around and look at it. Your ride will be as plush as a sports sedan. And you will crush any other stock car south of a million dollars in a straight line or at a track Your welcome.

 

I didn't say hate; I said you don't love Ferrari, seemingly. I could be mistaken.

I have a friend, almost family now, that is a top tech for Nissan. In a prior life he worked for/managed a top body shop in the Phili area. He told me that working on 308's and 328's next to BMW and Mercedes was funny, that say for instance fitting a tail light on a german car, the posts would barely clear the holes and it would slide on with such precision that you'd have to work it down the posts.

In contrast, a Ferrari tail light you'd have to kinda hold where it looked right and tighten the bolts.

The delta in quality or precision isn't new, has been there as long as you've known the marque. Others aren't wrong in suggesting you throw down for a current model Ferrari, if you want to avoid any such disappointments. But who knows what troubles lurk down the road.

Sorta like a taste for blowfish sushi. You just really can't know for sure what you're getting into with the next bite.

 

Sadly I am allergic to seafood but you have a good point! Makes you wonder about the ultra-new stuff like the hybrids and maybe even the TT-458M. Reliability unknown.

 

And the costs of the fixes are skyrocketing. The DCT failure is terrifying. I guess some dealers are getting the tools slowly to fix rather than swap, but that's a biggun. And we thought the bits in the 612 were pricey, screen, window switches, reverse lever, etc. They failures are rare enough that I'll likely go for an out of warranty Cali as a second here this year if business goes well, but if it fails it will suck to the tune of about $10-15k for rebuild, I believe.

Very comfy with my 599. Pretty much know what to expect and love her lots.

 

FX- Big anti-roll bars are for making cars with mushy rides corner better. Comparing a hot-rodded Mercedes with a 599 is kind of silly, especially if you think the Mercedes has better designed underpinnings.

F430s do not ride better than 599s, so your son needs a bit more seat time.

 

Terry, I apologize for not responding sooner. I have been up since 2:30AM for the London open and this is my first break. I have followed your posts for years regarding your 575. I believe I still have a magazine where Mario Andretti said he could go back out on the track and drive the 550 (not 575) 194 in the rain it was such a great car... What I remember to my dismay was your complaints that Ferrari never fixed or addressed known faults.

Top Gear, the Stig drove my CLS55 AMG and it landed directly under the 575 Maranello on their tote board. One thing to keep in mind is that while the 575 can go nearly 200mph, the AMG car is governed @155 so can't achieve the top speed it's capable of on the straights on their track. This is not a wallowing car by any means. Also, the AMG has a 2.65 final drive whereas the 599 "cheats" with a 4.18... AMG does 0 to 60 in 4.5 seconds with 2.65. What would it do with 4.11 gears (and it weighs 4400 lbs) vs 3700?

As far as the F12 goes I hate the styling on the back of that car so I wouldn't ever buy one. 620 HP is too much for the 599 imo, so 700 HP is worse for me. MB switched to 4Matic (all wheel drive) in the new CLS AMG to get power to the ground and now on the 2015 S coupe in USA. The new CLS goes 0 to 60 in about 3.3 seconds if memory serves with a 2.65 rear.

I've given it a great deal of thought and I believe I'm left with the new Hurican- German electronics and engineering, etc. However, I just discovered it too has the optional shocks found on 599, corvette, CTS-V etc that are so problematic. (If you opt out and use normal shocks they are set to the stiffest setting).

Hurican is only a V10 and not front engine but I guess I'll have to compromise. It is a cool looking car with all wheel drive.

BTW, Top Speed has a video of a Hurican crashing @194 mph and both people survived with one person in serious but not life-threatening condition.

As far as the 430 ride vs 599- I never drove a 430. But I do value my son's opinion. He spent a lot of time driving the 430 in the rain in Seattle.

 

MASR04: One of the reasons I don't buy new (besides the toxic fumes of a newly manufactured car) is you are stuck with what you order if you don't like it...

This was an '08 serviced faithfully by the F dealer since new in the right color and interior with 16k miles so it didn't sit all that much. Frankly was a POS when I was ready as you say to do it. Also @ 148K the price was okay.

I'll do the same do diligence on the Hurican (already found out about the shocks) before I buy because I tend to keep my cars a long time as I become emotionally attached to them. I only sold my last V12 BMW about a year ago with many miles on it. I believe I would grow to hate the 599 in time due to the harsh ride and having to keep fixing it constantly at horrendously high cost. No one likes to be gouged! I just paid $450 for a fuel filter for the AMG last month for example because it is an AMG. (MB just refunded me in full due a recall so I was pleased). The last fuel filter I bought cost $30 for the V12 BMW. Isn't that enough for a filter?

Finally, I'm going to Europe in a couple months, so maybe I'll buy over there and leave it there to drive. If so, I'll post pics.

I am also "considering" an Aventador but the Hurican beat the Aventador on the Top Gear test track so do you really need one if the Hurican is so sweet? The Hurican is 4 from the top on that extensive list. Says a lot...

 

599's don't break constantly. You don't have to keep fixing them at horrendously high cost. There are some known points of weakness, which most cars have if you choose to keep them well beyond warranty. I have a couple I'm expecting on my Cayenne TTS eventually as well, and I consider it one of the finest vehicles every produced. On 599 as you said, the shocks are one of them, at worst about every 15k miles, more than the total mileage on most used examples. It costs about 1% of the original purchase price to replace a pair of them.

And again, and again, the example you drove must have needed work.

 

I think you should buy a German car. I don't think you have La Passione (or the patience) which is what it takes to survive F car ownership ! I never compare my F car to any other because it's pointless.

 

If 150K is not even a weeks take why do you care about a 15K repair bill? Driving any exotic is never going to be cheap. You either pay depreciation or repair bills. The depreciation on a Huracan is likely to be 100K in 2 years.

A 599 is a great car. I did not find the ride to be harsh.

You can find a reason to talk yourself into or out of anything.