A Review of SAE Congress Oil Research Articles

This Oil thickening over time, does this happen when the oil is new and on the shelf, or when the oil goes into the engine and is used, or both?

 

LOL!

I'm busy picking up the pieces of my head that exploded when I read your post. I can only imagine how many nights you fell asleep reading all those papers to summarize!

 

Well I guess there is no guarantee how long a bottle of oil has been sitting since it was filled from the manufacturer and reached the retail shelf. I see no fill or use by dates on these products.

So how do you circumvent that scenario?

 

Note the concern with old oil is storage in the cold, not age. That's why Ali isn't bothered with oil in his Florida garage. I'm not certain at what temp this becomes an issue yet, I think it has to be quite a bit colder than I let my garage get in Michigan, too. So far the only references around have been fairly vague. "Significantly above the pour point" (which is, let's say, below 0F) doesn't sound like "30 degrees F" to me, but... it's pretty vague!

 

Ali,

I recently fried two turkeys for thankgiving; one in Peanut oil and one in redline 10/40. I noticed that at 350 degrees the peanut oil was stable and golden brown but the redline was smoking and looked like I was nearing a flash point.
Here are some other pieces of info that may assist you in your theory that you I am sure will follow this question:

At the time of the frying we were at 4 feet above sea level, the temperture was about 65 degrees and the wind was at 6 knots coming from the NE. Both oild were new and spent very little time on the shelf. Propane was the source of heat.

My question is simple: Why is peanut oil as expensive as Red Line?

Paul

 

AEHaas,
I start my truck about 120 times a week for 9 months during the year. I put synthetic 10w-30 in it. Should I switch to 0w-30 to reduce the wear a little?

-Dan

 

Gelling is an issue if you are using dino oil. The partial reason for this is the existance of chloronated paraffins, used as an additive for extreme pressure, which does a very good job, however when the oil gets cold it has a tendency to gell and hence cause oil flow problems. Prolong, the much advertized additive, contains chlorinated paraffins. Quality synthetics do not. Most cars that are daily drivers will benefit from the use of 0-30 oils, but because sythetics do not create deposits in your engine and an increase of five to six times film strength over dino oils it is advisable to use the higher performing sythetic. gary

 

Gary,
you sound like you know quite a bit about gelling. Do you have any information you can share about at what temperature this becomes a concern in mineral oils? I'd be interested in any more information you can give about this phenomenon. Thanks!

 

There's some of that base stock discussion again...

I hope you're going over there to Bobistheoilguy.com and hanging out on his forums, they're as nutty about oil as you are! They're also really big on basestock quality.

 

Ali,

Just when I thought I had a grip on this stuff. . . . It is clear from your earlier postings that the API ratings are lowest common denominator standards, and we need to look at other data, such as viscosities at 40, 100 and 150 degrees C, and at pour points. It is also clear that XW-XX designations generally are not useful in comparing brands. E.g., one company's 5W-40 may look like another's 0W-40 once you examine the other data. So far so good.

Are GF-3 and GF-4 ILSAC designations meaningful? HOW meaningful? E.g., I just bought a case of Mobil 5W-30 (instead of Castrol Syntec of the same "weight") based on the lower pour point of the Mobil 1. I figured a lower pour point meant the Mobil 1 wasn't as "honey-like" on startup as the Castrol. The viscosities were similar. Now I see that the Mobil is GF-3 and the Castrol is GF-4. Both have the ACEA A5, although that did not factor into my purchase because I was ignorant of its significance. So now I'm unsure I made the better choice.

I'm thinking of constructing a decision matrix in which to assign objective values to data to help me buy the right oil for the various engines I have: air-cooled lawn machinery, liquid cooled diesels for tractor and generator, and auto-SUV-Ferrari engines. The problem will be in determining the values. E.g., what should be the value of an ACEA A5 designation as opposed to an ACEA A3? The value of a MB or VW endorsement?

Or I can do what I've always done: just buy whatever name brand is on sale and meets the manufacturer's recommendation. And get on with life.

Cheers, Mark

 

This is really the most prudent way to go through life!
Ali is the most famous oil obsessive on Fchat, but there's a whole website full of oil obsessives! Every time I start reading there I have to stop myself, because I've already gone out hunting for the miracle elixir that's so popular there... :O I try to remind myself: Lots of cars have gone lots of miles with the stuff recommended in the manual. Obsessing on optimizing this or tweaking that or perfecting those won't have an appreciable effect on the quality of my life!

That being said, GF-4 is "better" than GF-3 in the exact same ways SM is better than SL-actually the GF- and S_ classifications are roughly parallel (you'll recall Ali wrote about SM):

There is some concern among the oil geeks that the reduction in Phosphorous mandated by the new standards may result in a REDUCTION in anti-wear characteristics in premium oils, such as Mobil 1. In this case you may be better off with an SL/GF-3 Mobil 1 than an SM/GF-4. These oils are too new for real-world users to have generated data to evaluate this theory.

Now the bonus content: if you use 5W-30, you could "upgrade" to Castrol 0W-30 and the stuff that says "Made in Germany" on the back has been shown to be great for wear and long service life! It's BMW Long Life approved and very highly sought after by the uber-geeks of the motor oil variety! Available at AutoZone from bottles that say, "Made in Germany"!

 

Ali.....

Thank you for all of your recent posts on oils. Most informative.......

Given that I live in a climate where dramatic 24 hour swings in the temperature are commonplace (for example today it was -31 celcius with -44 recorded once you factored into account the windchill.....and in 2/3 days it will swing to -5 or even zero for a day or two, then back down to -25 again) what do you suggest we do use in terms of oil viscosity to counter the hydroscopic effects of such temperature swings ? And how short an interval would you suggest as this season can extend for 90 days before it becomces more temperate and less dramatic in it's variations ?

 

Not that I'm an "expert" but it would seem that using an oil that will protect your engine in the higher temps would be advisable.

To ensure adequate flow on those cold morning start-ups use a heated dipstick (if you have a wet sump) and/or a block warmer.

 

Here's a little something I wrote a while back on oils. Feel free to comment.

Synthetic oils are so far superior to petroleum oils in their lubricating abilities and their ability to resist heat. They have a tougher film (five to six times) and stay that way for extended periods, surpassing all dino oils. Mileage is always increased with synthetics from friction reduction to more power, you will notice a quieter, freer reving engine. Synthetics all have the same size molecules, hence the tougher film strength and heat resistance. Petroleum (mineral) oils start to break down immediately upon use. The primary reason for this is because the molecules are of vastly different size and the biggest get broken down first and then the next biggest and so forth, which explains why they go away so fast. The data just does not support any claims to the contrary. Some additives in petroleum oils cause sludge deposits, such as Zinc and Phosphorus and do it at much lower oil temperatures. We will visit that more in a moment! Don't trust anybody but the experts. $12-$15 bucks will educate you. Knowledge is power! Get this book: (not my book) The Motor Oil Bible By Michael Kaufman. Email: [email protected] and you can tell your petroleum using buddies that you get what you pay for.
I just looked up several oils in the "Motor Oil Technical Specification Comparison Chart", which ranks oils on a 13 point rating, with a resultant total score. The higher score the better. They are:
Most Current American Petroleum Institute Specification, Viscosity Index, Pour Point, Flash Point, Fire Point, High Temperature / High Shear Viscosity cP, Noack Volatility 250 degrees C for 1 hour, % weight loss. Total base no., Four-Ball Wear test-Scar diameter, mm. Phosphorus ppm. Zinc ppm. Cold Crank Simulator Apparent Viscosity. Sulfated ash percentage of motor volume.
Castrol I,m afraid did not fare all that well(don’t believe the fancy t.v. commercials) but still did o.k., Syntec blend 597 score. GTX did worse with a 578 score. Valvoline Durablend did much better with a 633. Valvoline Synpower, better yet with a 673. These scores were 20-50 oils.
I looked at the top performers in this category. They are, Phillips 76-Nascar Synthetic, score 708.
Red Line- Passenger, score 709.
Mobil-1-V-twin, score 728, ( Highest score) this is a motorcycle oil.
When you change to different viscosities, so do the scores. In the 15-40 weight category Neo beat the competition with a 715. Neo also owns the 10w30 with a 712.
Amsoil owns 5w30 at 703, and 0w30 at 710.
15w50 Red Line passenger, rules at 712. Red Line 50w race only at 717. Red Line 40w race only at 722, (second highest score).
Amsoil 0w30 S2000 score 710.
Mobil 1 Tri-Syn score 701. Mobil 1 MX4T Motorcycle, 716. These are all the highest performers. All other oils fall below these in score.
I alway thought Pennzoil had a pretty good reputation! But look at this! Pennzoil Synthetic Blend 5w30, score 207. Pennzoil Synthetic 5w30, score 216. I've lost alot of sleep lately because I have this in my lawn mower.
The question of Zinc and phosphorus has come up in my research on oils, These two compounds are used to bolster the performance of all dino oils and some cheaper synthetics. The two are used as an anti-scuff, anti-wear additive, which are very effective at that job. It seems that they must be used in a balance in the oil, or relatively equal amounts. My research shows that these two additives are the basis for ash, which contributes to deposits in the engine.(sludge) It is interesting to note that the top oils that I have reported on (synthetics), contain no zinc or phosphorus, But rather these compounds are added to petroleum oils (most commonly),to increase their performance. All indications are that they are to be avoided, if other higher performing lubricants are available. This is the primary reason that high quality synthetics leave little deposits in your engine.
You have probably heard about some of the early synthetics having problems. This was primarily caused by catastrophic failure of the additive package. The additive package is very complex and depends on other compounds to function properly, so if one falls out the rest fall like dominos. The oil companies have learned a lot since those times. This is why it is not recommended to put additives into your oil, the additive package is already there and you could very easily upset the additive balance and cause much diminished oil performance.
Many developments have happened with synthetics lately: Ferrari, only specifies one synthetic for the Enzo at sixty dollars a quart, anything else voids the warranty. There are also rumblings about Nascar qualifying engines using oil that costs $1,000/fill. Good stuff to come.

Let me know your thoughts.

Gary

 

Please explain "NEO". Did I miss something here? I've never heard of it or the term.

Thanks for the info, Very illuminating!
DJ

 

Spasso, Neo is a oil manufacturer that is used in formula one, grand prix, nascar and so forth. They are relatively small and don't have to advertize much, and for good reason. They are also on top of the heap on quality and priceing.
I ran into them when reading Racecar Engineering and found that some F-1 teams were using it. That was enough for me to take a closer look.
Look up their site at www.neosyntheticoil.com
The question of gelling has come up in one of the posts. Some dino oils and some oil additives contain chlorinated paraffins. This compound is used as an extreme pressure additive, which is very effective at that job, but is the culprit causing oil to gell, especially at lower oil temperatures. The additive Prolong is one of these. Don't use it period, it could upset your last oil change. Even some of the other additives like STP and others contain polymers which thicken oils but you never know how much. Oil companys already add polymers to achieve the different multi-viscosities, so by adding more you have changed the additive package and hence the viscosity. For ultra high performance driving use only what comes out of the can. The only reason you would use one of these additives is in the case of a very worn, high milage motor , and then it helps to thicken things up a bit. The trouble is, it works for a short period and starts to go away, the reason is that shear takes its toll on the polymers especially at elevated oil pressures and rpm's. Polymers are not oil so if you load up the oil and then they start diminishing, you end up with an hollow oil, or an oil that has a percentage of its lubricating capacity severely impacted.

tnx. Gary

 

Thanks for the explanation.
I just finished reading the entire oil dissertation by AEHaas (twice)including the contributions by Mike E and Don XVI and learned a lot more about oil and it's properties.

Having never used additives I don't have to worry about that aspect but I will be paying closer attention to SAE classifications SJ, SL, SM etc.....................

All of this just in time for my spring oil change.