456 GTA 1997 Wont start - need fuel system expert | Page 2 | FerrariChat

456 GTA 1997 Wont start - need fuel system expert

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by spiderscott, Jan 13, 2018.

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  1. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #26 Motob, Jan 15, 2018
    The fuel pumps have probably died. Just pull the two fuel pump relays and jump the 30 and 87 pins (they will marked on the bottom of the relays). Check for power at the 30 pin (should be 12V). With the relay sockets jumped with jumper wires, you should hear the fuel pumps run and have fuel pressure at the rails. If not, the pumps are probably bad. Most likely from the rubber pump mounts coming apart and clogging the pumps. Remove the trunk access panel, recheck for power there. If good and no pump operation, then you are going to have to drain the fuel tank and replace the pumps and all of the disintegrated rubber mounts and old hard/broken plastic fuel hoses.
     
  2. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3
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    #27 spiderscott, Jan 15, 2018

    Im going to recheck this tomorrow, I tried the other day but it was extremely noisy background wise (my children playing :D).
     
  3. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3
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    #28 spiderscott, Jan 15, 2018

    Thanks for this, I found the same, only listen on the 456 M cars. Will look at the point in the engine bay to verify.
     
  4. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3
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    #29 spiderscott, Jan 15, 2018
    Thank you, my gut instinct is saying its either the pumps or possibly my fuse board.

    I need a tool to remove the pumps so will order one up and take a look at them.
     
  5. spiderscott

    spiderscott Formula 3
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    #30 spiderscott, Jan 15, 2018
  6. spiderscott

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    #31 spiderscott, Jan 15, 2018
  7. spiderscott

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    #32 spiderscott, Jan 15, 2018
    im no expert on these, but my Testarossa boards looked a hell of a lot better then this. side view and you can see the layers coming apart
     
  8. spiderscott

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    #33 spiderscott, Jan 15, 2018
  9. spiderscott

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    #34 spiderscott, Jan 15, 2018
  10. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #35 Motob, Jan 15, 2018
    Why did you remove the fuse-box and take it apart before diagnosing the cause of your problem? The proper way to diagnose any problem is to not move or disturb as few things as is possible while making measurements or tests on what you think might be causing the problem. If you had a bad connection somewhere at or in the fuse-box, now you will never know. I have worked with mechanics that would have a car come in not running, and they would fiddle with and wiggle every connection, then the car would run and they would not know what the cause of problem was, only to send the car out the door until the problem happened to the customer again.
    It's one thing if the fault is permanent and is easy to replicate, but most faults are intermittent, and sometimes the slightest movement of anything will cause the car to run again. If you was to fix the car properly, you need to learn how to diagnose problems properly.
     
  11. henryr

    henryr Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #36 henryr, Jan 15, 2018
    system voltage low - AKA how old is the battery ?

    i kid you not - replacing has solved many a issue
     
  12. spiderscott

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    #37 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018

    --- couple of reasons I did this, was not just on a whim.

    Firstly when I was jumping the two fuel relays I was getting signal and movement from one but not the other, not only that the replay terminals for the one with no movement felt as if there was nothing behind them, ie maybe a bent pin connector. I couldn't see enough while it was in situ in the car footwell. So removed for a internal inspection.
    Secondly there was one either Burnt or mouse chewed (hard to tell which, but there was small balls of carpet in the area to hence maybe a mouse) cable amongst the wiring bundle behind dash. Although it was an airbag wire which I cut out the bad section and repaired, you never know with these wires as the fault can jump to the next junction. So again i wanted to see the board itself to verify.

    Have put it all back together and it works as it did before, ie all systems etc I had prior to removal still function
     
  13. spiderscott

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    #38 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018
    So today I rechecked the pumps hardwiring to a battery.

    Left side (viewed from rear of car) is DEAD
     
  14. spiderscott

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    #39 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018
  15. spiderscott

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    #40 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018
    I found this on another thread.... anyone know a good source for these alfa gaskets, searched the web and cant find any in the UK
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  16. spiderscott

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    #41 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018
  17. spiderscott

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    #42 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018
    im also missing the 3 prong anti dampener that sits on the bottom of both baskets ?

    couldn't possibly have completely disintegrated :confused:
     
  18. spiderscott

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    #43 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #44 tazandjan, Jan 16, 2018
    Fuel filter is probably completely clogged, too.
     
  20. spiderscott

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    #45 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018
    I’ve got two new ones on order.

    Will be interesting to take a look in the old ones to see how clogged they are, wondering if that’s stopping fuel delivery (one pump was still working but no fuel at the rails)
     
  21. spiderscott

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    #46 spiderscott, Jan 16, 2018
  22. Cribbj

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    #47 Cribbj, Jan 16, 2018
    Scott, did you check with Superformance? They show a pump kit for the 456 on their website for 349.50 GBP, P/N V1209025. You'll need to clarify with them if this is for the earlier style setup like you have, with the threaded fittings on the pump, or if it's the later style like the 550's have. If it's not the early style, it's not that tough to convert from the early style to the later style - you'll just need some good ethanol proof fuel line. They also sell the very desirable cast rear covers that replace the plastic ones which are notorious for cracking & leaking. Since you're already this far into it, I'd go for these covers as well....... Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. ferraridriver

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    #48 ferraridriver, Jan 16, 2018
  24. Motob

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    #49 Motob, Jan 16, 2018
    The reason that your fuel pump died was that the car was stored for a long period of time with a low fuel level and ethanol in the gasoline. The ethanol separated out of the gasoline and attacked the rubber fuel pump mounts and the rubber bottom support pads. The water corroded the metal parts.
    Replace the fuel pump mounts with ethanol resistant mounts from Ricambi. The fuel pump is a standard Bosch pump. When you take the old pumps out of the mounts, you will see the bosch number. It should be 0 580 254 011. Remove the spaces from the number (0580254011) and do a google search for it, and you will be able to find an original Bosch pump for less than 1/3 of the Ferrari price. Replace both of the fuel pumps.
    Clean up and inspect everything else and you should be good to go.
    Keep your fuel tank full and drive the car a few times a month, otherwise fill the tank with race fuel with no ethanol or you will be doing the same job again in a few years
     
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  25. spiderscott

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    #50 spiderscott, Feb 2, 2018
    All fixed !!!

    I always like to close off a thread and for future reference and help to others make it know the fix.

    In this case as suspected it was the fuel pumps.

    However also wanted to give a alternative solution to the factory Bosch pumps which are super expensive and even the Bosch part number equivalent, cheapest I could find was £130 per pump, not to bad but it was taking ages to deliver the things (typical sellers advertising stock they don't hold)

    Anyway, I took a punt and ordered these aftermarket in tank pumps. As mentioned above they obviously work fine as the car runs like a dream.

    Now the beauty of these is 1.The price @ £64.17 each thats both pumps replaced for £130 !!

    PLUS .... they come with the fuel resistant rubber seal !!! which in itself from Eurospares is more than this price of the entire pump kit :D

    Two very small modifications were required to fit: 1) The brass union was no longer required and the internal fuel house clamped directly on the pump 2) The two positive and negative connectors had to be changed to spade connectors. The rest was simple and the rubber housing fits absolutely perfectly into the plastic filter house the pump.

    I know people don't like to venture into aftermarket, but have put it out there incase anyone gets stuck in the future. I will update if I get any adverse effects from these pumps.

    Hope it helps
    Scott
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