456 window problem update

Thanks Guys:

Having not seen the pin myself, it's kinda hard to get my mind around how this will improve the closing, but I'm sold and will use F1. Mainly, was thinking of the instant gratification of getting a repair in one sitting..... Probably won't get to it for a couple of months. Mine aren't that bad, just need a slight lowering after you get in the car for a better fit.

If I'm understanding correctly, removing the door handle gets it out of the way but may lead to more time getting it adjusted back to the right position. If you leave it connected to the rods, you can pass it through the opening and let it dangle? Sounds like flip a coin...

And, thanks for the tip on the door controller. It happened to me once, and only once, when I parked in the rain. Doors locked on their own. I reset by locking and unlocking with the key and it never has happened again. Guess that explains it...

SonomaRik- FYI, didn't see a PM...

Thanks again.....Mark

 

Thanks Andrew- That makes perfect sense. I checked my windows and the slop is "eliptical' as you described. My P-car, with the same type auto-seating windows, has none of that...

 

Mark- Just be happy the windows do not go up with wire cables, like they did on Dinos (Fiat and Ferrari) and 308s. What a pain replacing those broken cables and getting them the correct length. Did that on three cars and it is a picky, filthy job.

 

Yes, the bolded area is what I speak. I didn't think of it as a coin toss, now. It is just as easy to 'bend' them gently through the hold and out of the way as undo it all then re-calibrate later: That latter method is way more than I'd like to spend

the PM was in an email, and we've already connected, with my link to a PDF doc showing some pics on the mechanism removal.

And I too, have experienced that lockout scenario...actually I felt really dumb for asking help when I DID find the solution...real easy solution ...

 

Rik:

Must have been someone else... PM sent w/ my email address....Thanks....Mark

 

actually, this is too funny, in a sad, old timers way

I have three emails on this and couldn't remember one moment to the next. Dang

With the PM email I received, I'll check my 'stuff' and email back what I find.

NOW, I'll stop hijacking this thread.

rik

 

Those this window gap seem normal to the 456m owners around here? Unfortunately I don't have a shot where it is fully closed.

They feel fully flush on the rubber sealing with no gap.
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That is not a window gap: That is normal top gap to allow entry.

They have turned off the battery and kept the windows in the down position to allow customers entry I'm guessing.

the gap appears at the rear-most area touching the B-pillar.

You can only truly tell the gap when fully closed

try it then

 

I think you are on F-Life as well aren't you
I am talking about the gap on the b-pillar, not at the top obviously.

As I mentioned, I don't have a photo when the window is fully closed but it looks the same to me.

 

Those are not actually gaps.
For what I can see in those pictures, the glass is in full contact and pressing firmly on the rubber gasket, the one on the right appears to be tighter than that on the left, but both look ok and should be air and water tight.
You have a gap when the glass and the rubber gasket are not touching at all.

 

The b-pillar looks good...SO FAR, but you'll need to do as stated and see in the full position.

I'd try it a few times as might be a whimpy adjustment.

 

Hi All:

Here's some more info for this very useful thread...

Finally got to my windows. Raising mechanisms are out, packaged and ready to go to F-1….(When I call on Monday, F-1 will no doubt tell me they either don’t fix them anymore or they have a 6 month back-order on the replacement pins…. Wife has already chastised me for not calling before turning the car into a basket case….)

Mucho thanks to all who posted and especially for the pics and disassembly intel. Also, SonomaRik has even more pics and instructions, a service bulletin if you will, on that other F-site. Many thanks to Rik for sharing…

A couple of observations and more questions….

My gaps weren't too bad; but bad enough I’d have to put masking tape over them when washing…. Still, the scissor pin is pretty tight. I’m putting trust in my fellow 456er’s that that’s the culprit. Just a WAG, but seems to me the problem is not so much orbital slop as horizontal deflection in the scissor arms. Either way, a better, more stable rivet/pin will help.

Luckily, I didn't find any other parts that needed attention. With only 17K miles, everything looked like new. However, these doors are not virgins by any means…..The first owner (who had the car 1995-2011) bought the car from and had the car serviced at Auto Gallery in LA. There were signs of welding and enlargement of the fitment holes. Also, the whole thing was smeared with white grease, like a surfer slathered with zinc oxide. (F-1 will love that!) Clearly, some F-techs had spend considerable effort to get proper fitment of these windows.... indicative that this problem probably existed from day one...

Anyway, Rik was pretty emphatic about taping the rods. See pic below. (Rik, hope you don’t mind me infringing on your copyright. You can sue me and, if you need a lawyer, please call. I can’t sue myself, but maybe I can get a referral…..)

My rods were frozen with locking nuts on the turnbuckle, so their length couldn't vary. Nonetheless, I taped as instructed, AND then noticed the threaded “lock” bar could turn on the unlocked/unfrozen gray handle once unbolted. (This is almost impossible to describe until you've actually done it!) IOW, the door handle spins freely on the threaded rod even when you tape the rods together, thus changing the rod length… See second pic…. (Dean’s Pic, which I also pilfered.) The blue arrows show the connection point that has to be disconnected to lift the handle to get to the screw underneath affixing the handle. The red arrow shows the rod that can still screw in or out. Guess I'll find out on install how far out of adjustment the rods are, but looks to me, if they are that sensitive, adjusting the windows will make rod adjustment necessary anyway. Thoughts?

Lastly….. and, I’ll find out if I screwed up later….. I didn't disconnect the window glass from the window carrier like everyone else. I just lowered the window, pulled out the U-shaped clips that secure the ball in the socket and popped the balls out. I wouldn't have thought of this but Rik mentioned in his bulletin that they pop out easily. See third pic borrowed from Dean. (Notice I’m no longer characterizing my “fair use” of other’s work as theft. Guess crime get easier with repetition ….)

Final question….. How do I adjust the window for a good fit when I get the lifting mechanism back from F-1? Since I didn't remove the window holder, my thought is to 1) loosely re-install the lifter with the 6 screws that attach the lifter to the door, 2) raise the window with door closed, 3) adjust window to a proper fit outside the car and, then, with door still closed, 4) get in from the other side and finish tightening the fasteners. Thoughts?

Many thanks & regards….Mark
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FYI, called F-1 Imports today and they do indeed still fix the lifters. In fact, they have the service on their website. Says, around $200+, and guess that's per side.

F1 Imports & Exotics

I didn't inquire about just getting the pins and doing the fix myself.....As Taz said "why reinvent the wheel"....

Oh well, mine are on their way....

Regards...Mark

 

That is good news. Like said I've made mine work but only just so. Would like a better one do it and be done: Duct tape on washing...been there done that

as for the 'copyright' my attorney has given me the draft for attaching your 456

NOT.

feel free to do what you will.

 

I was at F1 Imports today and happened to mention this thread on window regulators. F1 advised me that they will NOT sell just the pins for the regulators as there is additional machining involved in the regulator fix.

As an aside they have also advised me that they are looking to buy 456, 550 and 575 used window regulators. That way when they receive a call on the regulators they can immediately forward the customer replacement regulators that have already been refurbished allowing the customer to install them at the same time they are removing their existing regulators. Consequently very little down time of the car. Customer merely has to forward their regulators to F1 who will then refurbish them and have them available for the next customer. How is that for service!

It just doesn't get any better than F1 Imports in Naples, Florida

Rick

 

FYI #2.... F-1 got the lifts today, repaired them and is shipping them back.... About $450 including return shipping... I just mailed them Monday!

+ 1 on what Rick said....

Any tips on adjusting when I get them back?

Regards......Mark

 

Based on what I've read here and on talking to the folks at F1 I'm bringingi our 456 GT to them for the window fix in early July...I'll post after we get the car back...BTW, has anyone taken a " care" from Lorton, VA. To Sanford Fla. on the auto train...that's our plan with the Ferrari....all the best, Marc

 

Marc….Good luck on your trip…Are you putting your car on a train from VA to FL? Didn’t know such a thing existed…..Here’s what you might can expect when you get your car back from F-1…

To recap, shipped my window lifts to F-1 on a Monday and got them back the next Monday.

Hard to say exactly what they do to them (the original goes to them with a “star”-looking rivet at the scissor pivot point and comes back with a much larger “pin”, kinda covered up, so it’s hard to see) but….if they do indeed stay fixed (which I have no reason to doubt, given all the positive testimonials here), I've got to say whomever discovered this fix is a genius!

The problem (which I’m guessing is random flexing and inconsistent movement of the scissor arms) is not obvious and apparently unfixable by Ferrari…..

For instance, I noticed my lifts/regulators were manufactured after 2001, my car is a 1995, and indeed, the records show the lifts were replaced new in 2007 at a cost of several thousand $$$. Mine weren’t too bad in 2012 but they weren’t right and that was less than 4000 miles since new lifts!

Anyway, I didn’t find anything here on adjustment of the windows once you get the revised mechanism back and suppose I know why… Adjustment is a black art at best. Make a 1/8” change and you get a ½” change in the fit. Small animal sacrifices seemed to help (being in Houston, I used roaches) but eventually a satisfactory fit can be accomplished. The two adjustment screws in the first pic below seemed to have the greatest effect….but I used every nut, screw and movement I could think of before I got it right…

The last two pics below are the final result. The passenger side was best and the driver’s side still had a gap top, bottom and center on the B-pillar that you could get the edge of a business card into. (This wasn’t related to the lift or adjustment…think of the rubber seal being like a roller-coaster…no amount of adjusting can fix.) See in last pic, the thin-walled vacuum hose… Cut some to fit inside the rubber seal and that all but eliminated the “bumpy” seal.

Final test was the dreaded high-pressure, brushless car-wash a/k/a Laser wash. Got a few drops rolling in but no worse than any other frameless-window car I’ve run through these leak finders. Also, wind noise gone…..

Time will tell but hoping this is the permanent fix.

Thanks again to all who posted…..the help was invaluable….Regards…Mark
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Mark,
as you have found out, the window lift is just one part of the problem, but not the universal fix.
The window guides are often part of the problem and the B pillar gasket or seal can also be a problem.
In some cases the whole door position needs to be adjusted.

 

Hi Mark...the train leaves from Lorton, VA and arrives in Sanford ,Fla 17 hours later. You can ride coach or take a roomette which is what we are doing in mid July..I'll post on the windows and the trip when we get back....

 

I've tried the tubing in the gasket trick but then the windows are reluctant to come back up...even without the tubing they are super speedy....I am hoping that the F1 fix does the trick....Marc

 

F 1 will do the trick without a doubt.
I had my car done by them several years ago and it has been water tight ever since: I can recommend them hands down.
Also while you have your car there, if you need your tires balanced, they have a good touch for that too.