456M Motronic (?) problem | FerrariChat

456M Motronic (?) problem

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by No Quarter, May 13, 2025.

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  1. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    100
    Denmark
    Full Name:
    Michael
    During my short ownership, I've three times now asked my wife if she wanted to drive with me in my "new" car. Every time I had to cancel it because it doesn't run well or have a (Slow Down) warning. She's not very impressed I think...

    Status: If often runs fine, this is an intermittent error. Either at starting or during a drive, it seems one bank suddenly doesn't contribute, I need to push accelerator down a lot more to more, it's very sluggish and doesn't sound happy.
    When in that state, if I pull left air flow meter wire, it almost dies but idles on, if I pull right air flow meter wire, no effect. So it seems the right bank is not contributing.
    I've replaced wiring and connectors going to the air flow meters, both sides.

    Any ideas? I'm not knowledgable about injection. After reading a bit, my short list is:
    -Air flow meter?
    -Rev counter signal?
    -Intake air temp (not likely, even if temp is misread it should contribute?)
    -Throttle potentiometer?
    -Timing sensor?
    -Fuel pump (not my guess since the problem is very on/off)

    I have no Check Engine light. I do get Slow Down P0102 every time I test by pulling air flow meter wire, and Slow Down disappears when the P0102 is cleared.


    What to look at first? Anything missing from my list?
    1. What can I do myself?
    2. What can local Bosch shop do, they can only read P0102?
    3. If giving up and driving it to Ferrari, can I expect they can read out something and find the fault, or will they just replace components until they find the right one? ;-)

    Help me before my wife gives up on it (and me) :)
     
  2. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Ian Riddell
    What do you mean by the "right" airflow meter? The MAF on the right hand side of the car measures air going into the Left Bank (cylinders 7~12).

    It's likely that the MAF on the driver's side of the car is faulty. Have you tried cleaning the MAF sensor with MAF cleaner?

    Have you changed/cleaned the air filters recently? Have you checked the voltage going to pin 3 of the MAF connector (with the key on)?

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  3. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    100
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    Michael
    Yes, I wrote it a bit confusing. When I wrote that there was no effect of removing the right MAF connector, I mean the connector on the RH side of the car looking forward, and yes of course, that side actully feeds the LH bank of the engine. So right now, LH bank doesn't seem to contribute

    Never heard of MAF cleaner, will try to get hold of some

    Air filters replaced today, old ones not in bad shape

    Voltage of pin3: On the non contributing side (RH sensor, left cylinder bank) I only have 0.23V, on the opposite side I have 12.3V...
     
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  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #4 Qavion, May 13, 2025
    Last edited: May 13, 2025
    Interesting. Can you confirm you have a ground/earth on pin 1? I just want to confirm you have the correct pin on the RH side MAF. I guess the wire colours are not visible.

    Sometimes Ferrari diagrams have the plug numbering back to front.

    If there is no 12 volts on either of the middle two pins on the RH side MAF, maybe you could look for power on the idle air controller or the catalytic converter temperature ECU (on the left hand side). Or, if it's easier, try swapping the U and Q (injector) relays in the passenger footwell to see if the MAF behaviour changes banks.

    Unfortunately, these cars can have relay panel internal issues. You may be able to get the bank running again simply by pushing on relay "U" or wiggling it from side to side.
     
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  5. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Michael
    Some analysis.
    -On RH I have the 0.23V at pin 23, 0V at pin 2, ignition on.
    -had a couple of spare catalyst ECUs, not sure they work, used them on LH side, no change
    -found relay U and Q, switched them and took them out, still 0.23V(?)

    "look for power on the idle air controller" please explain
     
  6. Aerosurfer

    Aerosurfer Formula 3
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    Nov 21, 2020
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    Have you swapped your MAF from left to right? That can at least confirm or eliminate whether the problem is component or wiring/upstream.

    Idle air controller is the component under each intake elbow, there is a 3 pin plug. It may be worth just pulling those and running some carb cleaner thru them to make sure they aren't gummed up. It's not going to your problem at hand, but can't hurt to clean them

    Since you have been down in the fuse board already, I would carefully pull each plug on the fuseboard and inspect for loose or burned pins too.
     
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  7. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    There is definitely something wrong here.

    Here is the wiring diagram for the LH bank (including the MAF on the right side):

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/BoEEZpv1KsDUxhKJ

    The MAF is "39L". The orange wire is the power wire. The orange wire goes to splice "S108L". Splice "S108L" gets power from pin 10 of connector 23F/26L.
    Splice "S108L" also supplies power to:
    1) The cat temperature ECU "28L" (pin A). I wasn't worried about the ECU failing. I was more concerned about the power going to the ECU. If we can establish that power is also not getting to this ECU, we may have a power problem further "upstream".
    2) The Idle Speed Regulator (38L)

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    If the wiring connector is too difficult to get to, we could try doing tests at the relay panel.

    Look for 12 volts (with the key on) at pins 4 & 5, plug G.

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    Try to check the voltage without disconnecting the connector. One of these wires supplies power to pin 10 of plug 23F/26L.



    Sorry, I was thinking of a RH drive car. In Europe, the MAF on the passenger side is the MAF for the LH bank, but I think you understood what I meant to say anyway.
     
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  8. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    The lack of 12 volts at the plug is a sign of bad wiring, Nick
     
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  9. Aerosurfer

    Aerosurfer Formula 3
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    Nov 21, 2020
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    Gotcha.... and agree. Ian, I'll fully admit I love your comprehensive writings and responses, but this was one of those times I glazed over your answer, while focused on his problem. Carry on...
     
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  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    If you don't have 12 volts on those wires, we will have to do some power checks on the socket for relay "U".
    Pins 86 & 30 should have live battery power (12 volts) on them.
    Pin 87 goes to relay panel plug G (pins 4 & 5). You could do continuity checks between the relay socket (pin 87) and those pins.
    The LH Motronic ECU sends a ground to pin 85 to activate the relay (with the key on).

    Relay U also sends power to the coil of relay T (the LH fuel pump relay). You can refit relay U and remove relay T and check for power at relay T socket pin 86.

    Here is the wiring diagram for the relay panel...

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/NQWZbqtsjlbLblBh

    Sorry for all the information. It's almost bedtime here and I won't be able to finish the faultfinding today, so I'm trying to give you as much information as possible..
     
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  11. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Just did most of what Aerosurfer wrote, haven't done what Qavion wrote last yet

    I removed, viewed, checked for resistance on all fuses, and removed and pushed back in all relays on the left half, all the while the battery switch off, I now have 12V to pin 3, and it runs fine. Don't know what I did. Don't know if it will last, because this problem comes and goes. But my plan right now is to drive it a few times with the plate open to fuses etc, if it starts to behave badly again, I'll wiggle everything I can get to...
     
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  12. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Michael
    "Sorry for all the information", don't ever apologize for that, I appreciate it. I can sort through it...

    Goodnight, and I'll go driving a bit now, and will let us all know...:)
     
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  13. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Michael
    Problem solved. Maybe. For a while? We'll see

    So I had both banks runnng, full power, kept fuse/relay plate down, drove to local Bosch shop to replace relay U and Q, seemed like a sensible cheap thing to do. Stopped at the shop, took out relay U to make sure he had two exactly like it, got them, put in the old relay in U, started, only half power. Busy road, had to drive half a mile, stopped, wiggled the U relay, could hear it clicked, got full power, took it out, back to half power (obviously), put in new relay, full power, wiggled it, no click and still full power. It would seem the old relay was intermittently faulty. Drove 5 miles, full power.

    I realise it can also be something in the connectors where the relay U sits, and it can be something else that will come back in a few days. For now, I drive test trips with fuse lid down and extra relay in glovebox...
     
  14. Aerosurfer

    Aerosurfer Formula 3
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    Relays are cheap enough (at least in the US), and there are only 4 different relays used. You may as well get a few equivalent spares of each... well at least for a non M car.

    I would put removing, undressing and inspecting your fuseboard to the top of the list if the problems return. Read up on eventual fuseboard replacement from @theunissenguido
     
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  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Sounds promising, but didn't you say you swapped the relays earlier? Anyway, I wish you luck :D

    Aftermarket relay panels are available. Unfortunately, they are not as cheap as a new relay.

    (EDIT: Sorry, crossposted with Nick)
     
  16. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Michael
    "but didn't you say you swapped the relays earlier?", yes I did, that would indicate I haven't found root cause yet...
     
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  17. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Michael
    A side note:
    I built up courage to ask my wife for the 4th time if she wanted to go on short drive with me. And we did, and it drove fine. But I don't think the car likes my wife, she couldn't get the seat belt out. I couldn't get her seat belt out either. We drove very short trip. Back in the workshop, the belt worked fine... Today's test trip (alone), passenger belt was stuck, then after driving 10 meters it was ok again. Any known issues I haven't found googling??
     
  18. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
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    Michael
    An update. I have driven 5-6 trips without problems. I bring along a piece of wire to short 30 to 87 if needed, and a spare relay. Theunissenguido has also shown me what he can deliver of fuse box, if the problem returns and therefore is not isolated to the relay I had...

    Qavion, I tested the wire 4 and 5 as you wrote earlier, and now when everything works, I got 11.7V in both, ignition on, engine not running. Does that tell me anything?

    Thanks so far...
     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    It tells us that, at the moment, relay U and the relay panel are working normally (and should be providing power to things like the MAF). Relay U provides power to both pins, but the 2 wires feed different components on the LH bank.
     
  20. No Quarter

    No Quarter Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    100
    Denmark
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Excuse me for answering my own question. I today took the panels of the right seat, to get to the belt winding mechanism. It's tilted slightly to the outside of the car so the belt aligns with the exit at passenger's right shoulder. But that's the problem, it's tilted.
    I loosened the attaching bolt, and wiggling the mechanism 1 mm more towards me, belt can't come out, 1mm more towards center of car (more vertical), belt works perfect. I took the bracket that the mechanism is attached to, removed 1 mm material at the top, so that the winding mechanism could sit 1mm more vertical, and installed all again. It works fine now...
     
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