Am i the only one who thinks its bit crazy for someone who has driven one time on track to be getting a 458 challenge?! Im all for enthusiasm, jumping into the deep end, etc but this seems like a recipe for trouble. Im an instructor that pretty much gets in any car with anyone but would refuse this. Good luck if comes to fruition but i hope op reconsiders
He's going just as fast in a 458 with all the nannies off and less protection. How is a challenge car with more safety systems more dangerous? But I would definitely do some schools first for sure personally. One may find that they like formula cars more than GT cars as just one example.
I understand your worries, and I have some apprehension as well. On face value it seems outrageous and a recipe for disaster. However getting the challenge car has never been about getting more performance or higher speeds, my reason for getting it is safety. I'm pushing the 458 Spider and it doesn't have the safety items of a track car. This.
Thank you for the tips. I'm a sweat beast so I definatley want whatever is coolest (temperature-wise )
We can help you set up everything from the telemetry to the cool suit. There are a good number of options out there; luckily we run a good number of cars in CCR, Ferrari Challenge, Corse Cliente as well as track day enthusiasts and know what works. Once you get your car I will get with Onofrio to help ensure you get the right information to get the setup that is best for you.
I understand his enthusiasm as I see it every week but my advice (given in the other thread also) would be to start out in in a lesser car, fully set up for safety, that would be better for him to learn proper driving skills in. As Ferrari doesn't really produce a "starter race car" I would look to other proven, established mid-engine marques to learn in. Use all that extra $$ for pro coaching and more events! Just my $.02.
first off, glad to have another enthusiast in the track hobby. secondly, its not about 'how safe the car is after a crash'. its 'how stable is the car so the driver wont have a crash'. other issue is being a beginner in a racing Ferrari might cause embarrassment when being passed by miatas and civics with experienced drivers. then he gets the red mist. that gets the newbie over his head and into big trouble plenty of other car choices out there. both street and race that would more appropriate for a newbie. how about a cayman? either stock street or prepped race, its much easier to handle than a 458c.
The 458C is a LOT of car for someone new on track. (So is a 458 Italia, etc etc). These cars are missiles. Pound for pound, they are great cars but also very expensive per km driven compared to a race-prepped Cayman or MX-5. If you bend something, it's even worse... GOOD that you have someone knowledgeable taking care of it. Maintenance and upkeep are key. Having said that, at-track support and the right setup are equally important. When you get an alarm code in the first session, you'll wish you had someone there (i.e. a TCS error can be ruin your weekend if you don't know how to handle, or are able to fix). GET A PROFESSIONAL COACH. See if Onofrio will work with you, but do not get a "DE" coach, get an actual professional who knows these cars - both on setup and in how to drive them. (apologies on the DE comment if that upsets anyone) On setup - the Challenge cars are easy to go fast in, but are sensitive to setup depending on the track (ride heights, rake, bar). DO NOT GO CHEAP - assuming you are running the Pirelli DH slicks; well, they don't last long. Depending on the track, 35 laps and they get sketchy (obviously variable, a lot of on how you drive). Spend on a coach, and don't try and save money by stretching tires or brake pads. Our cars get a full nut-and bolt, brake bleed and setup/set-down every day. If you're going to get a car and open-trailer it....make sure you're equipped to remove the wheels (wheel tool, gun, nitrogen tank), jack it up (air wand), etc. Might be worth paying for professional support at track the first 5 days so you know how to do the basics before you go DIY. As for safety - I agree, the safest car is the one you can control and avoid trouble. 458C's are great at that, when set up and driven properly. If not....bad things happen quickly. In that case, having a cage/seat/harness is great. I"ve been around enough and seen enough and done enough that I won't push a street car on a track again. Having said that, a well-prepped MX-5 cup car has the same safety features and is a great learning platform.
I've tried everything; the Momo shirt is great in that it has flat bladders and seems to work more effectively (for me) than the tube-based shirts and is more comfortable. discuss with your shop where to mount it; assuming you'll have a coach and therefore a passenger seat, you're likely to mount the cooler in the front boot. If you're really doing this for "safety", I'd toss the OEM Sabelt seats and get a good HALO seat (your helmet and the roll cage are tight fits in these cars). Make sure you have internal and side window nets. For personal safety gear - get the best helmet that fits. 3-layer suit, FIA 3.2/5. I'd also swap the OEM belts for a HANS-specific setup, Schroth seems to work best for me.
As for the driver accessories, I think quality is pretty standard across brands - assuming an apples to apples comparison of two layer to three layer etc., and same price level - a top line Sparco will be as safe as a topline Simpson or a topline OMP. After that, fit and comfort come into play as differentiators. I have both a Sparco and an OMP suit, similar quality and exact same size, but I find the OMP just fits more comfortably around the shoulders and arms. My advice to Kyle is to try on a few to see which one feels best. In the car at speed, you want no distractions, least of all a suit that isn't quite right. I will echo others here and congratulate and encourage someone who is passionate enough about the hobby to be taking the big step of going to a challenge car. However I would be lying if I said I thought it was a good idea to do it so soon. Spending time working on the fundamentals in a lower power car, then taking that knowledge up the horsepower ladder seems to me the best path. A professional coach would be a very very wise choice. It doesn't need to be an overly long path, but I can't help thinking... I just don't want to open a thread one day about a bad 458C crash at Sebring. Or be on track to see it happen.
Most of the folks I work with are older. Thermal issues, especially for longer sessions at events in the Southeast, can be significant and contribute to loss of concentration, fatigue and mistakes that can lead to an accident and potential injury. More and more of the tech in driver's suits and accessory safety gear focuses on thermal rejection and driver cooling (as much as can be done, maintaining the SFI or FIA protection requirements). I do recommend (and wear myself) the lightest, breathable, highest protection homologated suits I can find. An inexpensive suit can cost $400-$700. The kind I am talking about are between $1700-$2800, and worth EVERY penny. I also recommend helmets that place a priority on cooling, because if you can keep your head cool first, and your core at least cooler second, you're way ahead of the game. Race cars are an extreme thermal environment. Stand21, Sparco, OMP are all good. Those old cheap, thick, entry-level suits I threw away a long time ago...
Absolutely agree!! When I finally came to my senses, stopped thinking just with my checkbook and stepped up to an ultralight suit, the difference was night and day. Both in comfort, and keeping stamina and focus later in the day. For that difference, an extra $1,000 or so is peanuts. Edit: These days I also run a Cool Shirt under that ultralight suit, so the difference is night and day and then some. And at Sebring in the summer, that's priceless.
Was reading the latest issue of Forza this morning and there is an article comparing the different Challenge cars from the 355 up to the 458. The consensus was that the 360 is the best car to start out in and they came right out and said the 458 is NOT for someone without a lot of experience. They weren't big on a newbie in a 430 either!
That's a pretty interesting statement, I'd seriously doubt the writer has much experience in any of the cars. I've raced the 360, 430 and 458 and own a 360 and 458 and wouldn't necessarily agree with that. The 458 has a lot of power, sure but the ediff is extremely invasive and prevents the driver from doing too many stupid things with the wheel turned. The 360 is more than happy to live up to it's name and do 360's however. They're both, like any race car, extremely sensitive to setup, but if I had to put my wife in one of the two, it wouldn't be the 360.
No idea, just passing along the article's info. He did mention the 360 was evil until they introduced an aero package, maybe that comes into play? I have absolutely no connection to Forza or experience in a Challenge car!
Safety is a top concern for all of us. I participate in CCR as well. Learning from others about safety issues and improvements will benefit us all. Would you share what you learned from the crash and what further precautions your team has taken? I would like to implement in my car and team as well, if possible. Thanks!
In no particular order or recommendation. I'm sure there are more. If there is a chance you'll run under an SCCA sanction, make sure you specify SFI rating patch to be added to FIA rated suits. Some tech inspectors get sticky... Sparco: EXTREMA RS-10 X20 (SFI 20) EAGLE RS-8 SUPERLEGGERA RS-9 AIR-15 (SFI 15) X-LIGHT M-8 X-LIGHT X-8 X-LIGHT EVO 3 SPECIAL EDITION OMP: One EVO 2105 Stand21: ST3000 HSC ST221 HSC EVO Simpson: REVO
+1 on the Sparco X-light X8. I've run this in an open cockpit for multiple days in 90F+ heat and it is quite cool given the conditions and the fact that it is 3 layers.
One critical measure is weight in grams per square meter. The less expensive suits are around 400 gm/sqm. The lower half of the upper third in cost are generally around 295-300 gm/sqm. This was cutting edge only four years ago! The most expensive are 200 gm/sqm and STILL meet FIA standard! My first custom VAS thirty years ago was nearly 600 gm/sqm!?!?! My current Sparco and OMP suits are 295 gm/sqm. "Breathability" is important, too. That's why the Stand21's are worth looking at. They've seized on that as being the most important criteria, rather than lightness. Alpine Stars makes nice ones, too.
Just for the record the Sparco Eagle RS-8 is a single layer suit with the protection of a 3 layer suit and meets FIA 8858-2000. These new suits, particularly the Sparco Hocotex material, are on the order of 3 times more breathable than "old school" quilted suits. The Sparco Extrema RS-10 is currently claiming to be the lightest suit in the world. The X20 achieves SFI 3.2A/20 protection rating by way of a 7 layer construction and is aimed at drag racers as is the Air-15. Superleggera was the lightest suit prior to the Extrema and is 10% heavier and less breathable. It is also Nomex instead of Hocotex. (Disclaimer: I used to be in this business and was an importer / distributor for Sparco, Bell Racestar, Simpson and one or two others)
Thanks Stig. So for comfort in the hot FL sun, which do you recommend? The Sparco Eagle rs-8 or the Sparco Extrema RS-10? I assume the extrema but I just want to confirm. BTW that was definitely a Mono Lisa Vito answer! (you need to know the movie My Cousin Vinny or Bill Belichick for that reference).
