458 Battery Problems !!!

You were absolutely right Rugby (or whatever your name may be ...) measured it today and voltage is 12.7 !

So the meter is definitively not accurate here !

 

Good work! That’s a huge error difference!
I wonder if there is a more elegant way to accurately monitor the battery.
If one knew the problem with the car display, perhaps it could be improved.
Makes one wonder about the accuracy of the other display readings, such as speedo, temp, pressure !

 

It' s an error and shows that we cannot rely on these meters ... pitty on such an expensive car imo ...

 

I saw that the Ferrari 458has a battery ECU. I imagine that this is how the state of charge is measured.

I also read that in some cars if a battery is changed from one kind to another such as AGM to wet cell, the new battery type may need to be coded because it may change the charging strategy to match the battery. I don’t know if this is the case for wthe 458.
Obviously if one changes to Li Ion battery, it would be nice to know if there should be a different charging setting while driving. ( We have already established that the Li Braille uses a different trickle charger than the one supplied by Ferrari)

Furthermore, if the battery ECU is not measuring the state of charge accurately, as Melvok and RayJohn have observed that the car under reads the voltage, this is not ideal either. Overcharging a charged battery will lead to its early demise.

Perhaps someone with knowledge about this can chime in.

 

Never knew this ... MalibuGuy

But found something about it in the WSM ... ..

But how do we approach that device that seems to be C001-D ?

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Or do they mean this battery connector ?

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The 458 parts diagram shows the battery ECU sitting on top of the battery positive terminal. It looks to be a simple power distribution box with several fused outputs. I don’t see any electronics or control wiring, so it probably doesn’t have any brains to measure the battery state of charge.

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With lead-acid batteries (both AGM and flooded), there really is no need to measure the SOC. Since the SOC is proportional to battery voltage, the regulator uses a voltage sense wire from the battery to adjust the alternator output. This keeps the battery from overcharging. The regulator battery voltage sense wire circuit is separate from the instrument panel voltage display, so an inaccurate panel display should not affect the alternator’s charging levels.

Lithium batteries retrofitted to cars designed for lead-acid batteries handle lithium’s charging characteristics by incorporating a battery management system inside the battery case. The BMS is designed to protect the lithium battery from both overcharging and overdraining.

Lithium batteries retrofitted to street cars present other potential problems for standard charging system components, such as the alternator, power wiring and fuses. Ideally, these components should be upgraded when a lithium battery is installed, but most people don’t bother. This works most of the time, but it can have consequences under certain circumstances.

 

Not really a ECU imo; probably wrong translated ...

 

I'll ask some of these questions when I speak with Gary at Braille and see if he has any insight which he can share.

In the meantime, I almost forgot... I made a video the other day, showing how my battery voltage (via the dash panel gauge) acts during start up. The car had been sitting for about a week and I recorded this video from a cold start:



Not sure if it helps much, but it does show that there is a mild drop initially, then the meter goes up to about 14 volts.

Ray

 

I use a product called a CTEK Sense on several of my cars, it monitors the state of battery voltage and sends a reading by bluetooth to an app on my phone. They are cheap to buy and seem very accurate, only issue is you have to stand next to the vehicle so it is in bluetooth range for it to update.

 

The battery on the Italia dies VERy quickly if not on the tender. We have a brand new battery.

I've never used one for the 430. It's never needed it.

 

Pretty impressive result by RayJ. If he can get that kind of result after a week off the tender it would be VERY impressive.

Would like to see how it looks after two weeks...

RayJ, what charger/maintainer do you use with it??

SV

 

Not quite two weeks, but yesterday the car started right up after sitting for 12 days (no battery tender).

Since installing the Braille Battery, I have not used any sort of tender on it. When I purchased the battery, I also purchased their normal battery tender/charger (model # 1236L). My plan here is to clip off the ends of that charger and wire up the connector required by the 458. This will allow me to charge up the battery if ever needed and will also properly interface in with the car's ECU. I have already purchased all the parts and tools to build the connector, but I just haven't gotten around to doing it.

As mentioned, so far I haven't needed the charger at all.

Anyway, after sitting for 12 days, the car cranked right over. I did not put any the volt meter on the car prior to starting, but I did flip the dash over to the voltage screen in order to see where things stood. As far as the dash panel gauge, it was sitting right at 13.0 volts.

So that was encouraging.

I usually drive the 458 about once a week. The only reason it sat a bit longer this time was because I cut my foot and wasn't really able to drive until it healed for a few more days.

12 days with no battery tender is pretty good though. Based on how readily the car started, I don't think another 3 days would have made much difference.

Ray

 

I've been using a Braille lithium battery for almost a year now. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/lithium-battery-installed.511367/#post-144456113 I've never had any electrical and battery problems. There is no need to teach the ECU or a need to replace any other electronics. I just installed another Ferrari charger connector to the original Braille Lithium charger and everything is just fine. I always try to have the charger attached to the car because if (according to Braille) that lithium battery gets discharged to a certain level it may become damaged and can not be recovered .

 

are you using a charger designed for Lithium batteries? My understanding from Braille is that you are not supposed to use a charger designed for lead acid type batteries.

Don't need to teach the ECU anything, but the ECU does have a pin on the connector for the stock Ferrari battery tender that must be brought high (as I recall) in order to tell the ECU that the car is connected up.

Good advice about not allowing it to discharge too far. I've heard that also w/ regard to Lithium batteries.

Ray

 

The discharge curve you published earlier shows a very flat discharge until it falls off the cliff. You won’t know you’re there until you’re there!

I can’t go two weeks without the maintainer.

Agreed about the difference in charger. Should use the one that’s designed for it...

SV

 

Hi Ray, I guess you read my post too fast Once again, yes, I use original dedicated Braille charger and I use the original Ferrari connector

 

That I did

Ray

 

One issue with a Lithium ION battery has to do with temperature.
I’ve heard that these batteries can undergone deterioration when exposed to temperatures like 100F
This is an issue when they are placed near the engine, so F models like the Cali or V12s, may be a poor choice for a Braille.

The compartment for the mid rear V8 is inside the cockpit in the passenger footwell. If you park your car outside in the sun, with all the windows sealed , the temp can reach 100F or even higher depending on the ambient temperature.

This may reduce the expected life of a lithium Ion battery.

Since my 458 is outside a lot, I am going to stick with the gel mat Oddyseybattery. I just checked my service records and my battery is a little over three years old and still holding a charge. I’ll swap it out for a fresh one before it goes flat at an inconvenient time,

I think if you drive the car regularly, use the tender for the periods when it sits idle, and replace the battery at planned 3 year interval, then a gel mat is a perfectly good solution. ($275 every three years is economical too.)

But I do think that if your car is sitting in a cool environment and cannot be tethered to a tender, that the lithium ion is superior, especially if both batteries are over two years old.

 

But ... we do not drive a lot, do we ... ?

And even now it's wintertime ....

 

I have some experience with this technology from owning a cruising sailboat.

The advantages of Lithium (LiFePO4) batteries are charge/discharge rate and weight. Unfortunately, regardless of the marketing claims, there is no such thing as a drop-in replacement with this chemistry of a lead acid battery.

There is a reason the wall charger for LiFePO4 is different from those for AGM or other lead acid: It is harmful to the batteries to trickle, or "float" charge them, and worse, they degrade if stored fully charged! This means the voltage regulator used for alternator charging lead acid is harmful to LiFePO4--the charging circuit needs to be disconnected once the battery is fully charged or the batteries will be harmed.

And this chemistry is more volatile than lead acid. Boats have burned because of it. The battery management systems have to be sophisticated to balance cells and manage thermal runaway.

 

Here's an estimate of how long we can stay off the charger with the shutdown currents described here as 40 mA to 75 mA based on whether the car is alarmed or not. The stock and Interstate AGM replacement batteries have 70 amp hours of capacity.

So with the car alarmed, bringing the state of charge down to a safe 50% from 100%, we have 35 amp hours/75 mA = 467 hours or about 20 days. Not alarmed a similar calculation gives 36 days.

The opposite of Lithium batteries, AGMs need to be topped of regularly to stay healthy. If possible keeping the wall charger plugged in while shut down is optimal for long life.

 

Thanx Keith, very informative; lots of new info for me at least.

Did I understand right: a normal Fcar alternator may harm a LiFePO4 battery in the car ?

And if done so. one should not install one on a permanent connection in the car ?

 

According to Braille there is no such a risk alternator will damage the Li-battery. Sooo many racing cars are being equipped with their batteries and I don't think they have dedicates alternators and/or power management systems.

 

Good comments. Let me try to address a few of the points.

Some lithium battery manufacturers handle the overcharging issue with a built-in BMS that provides protection for both overcharging and overdraining events (HVE and LVE). When done correctly, the BMS monitors the battery on a cell level and cuts off the charging source when the first cell reaches full voltage.

For overdrain protection, the BMS cuts off all loads when the weakest cell reaches a pre-determined minimum voltage, leaving a small emergency charge. The user can then push a reset button on the battery to start the car.

But there are other issues. When lithium batteries are retrofitted to boats, typically the whole charging system gets upgraded. This includes the alternator, regulator, charger, fuses and sometimes wiring and connections. The reason for the upgrades is that the currents involved with lithium batteries are much larger than with lead-acid, placing a greater stress on those components.

These types of upgrades are usually not done when lithium batteries are dropped in as replacements in cars. The original alternator, regulator, fusing and wiring, which were designed to handle lead-acid chemistry, usually stay in place. This will work… for a while. Eventually, the overstressed components can start failing prematurely. At worst, this can cause an electrical fire. I am not sure how an insurance company will react if a car with a lithium retrofit is damaged due to an electrical fire.

I agree that lithium batteries should never be float charged. Lithium battery life is inversely proportional to the amount of time spent at 100% SOC. Unfortunately, this characteristic is in direct conflict with the needs of the driver – when you get in the car, you want your battery to be as full as possible.

I am not sure how the lithium-graded trickle chargers handle that. Do they cut off the float voltage at, say, 80% charge, or do they fill the battery to the gills, as the lead-acid chargers do? That approach would not be a good life-cycle algorithm for lithium.

And lastly, I am not aware of any boat fires that can be attributed directly to lithium batteries themselves. Most lithium drop-in replacements use the LiFePo chemistry, which is very stable. If you are thinking of the 44 foot African Cats catamaran that burned to the water line a few years ago, to my knowledge that fire was caused by an automotive battery charger the user had hooked up to his battery pack before going on shore for dinner. The undersized charger overloaded and set the boat on fire.

Having said all that, despite being a big fan of lithium batteries, I would not put one in my street Ferrari. Too much risk in return for minor benefits. If I had a race car, there’s no question I would go with lithium.

 

Thanks for the clarification, rugby. Yours is my understanding.

I remember the boat fire as being a race boat in the Caribbean, and the cause was somewhat speculative.

A significant issue in boats is that small-case alternators designed for lead acid don't have to tolerate the heat associated with long periods at full output, as the charge acceptance tapers. But lithium batteries take all the charge current you can give them, so create precisely this problem. This could be a problem in cars as well.