458 Brake Fade on Track | Page 4 | FerrariChat

458 Brake Fade on Track

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by Paul Tomey, Jul 13, 2020.

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  1. WillskiGT

    WillskiGT Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 12, 2017
    423
    Not sure, I would consult the factory parts diagrams.

    Ducts can be ziptied to suspension arms (leaving enough slack for when the upright turns left or right). You would need to drill into the underbody and use a flush face fastener for the NACA duct itself.
     
  2. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    Do challenge pads require steel rotors?


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  3. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
    Hopefully some place nice.
    Full Name:
    A.B
    No. Ferrari offers two sets of pads for Challenge cars. One for CCM which is what a Challenge car is fitted with, and one for steel, which some switch to.

    You need part number 70004768 and 70002017. Those,are for CCM rotors.

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  4. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    I’m having a tough time visualizing where the NACA ducts would be installed inside the wheel well. What is the exact location?
    Thank you


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  5. Petrolhead#32

    Petrolhead#32 Formula Junior
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    Sep 23, 2020
    514
    NorCal
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    Petrolhead#32
    Hey all,

    Did a track day recently at Laguna Seca with my 2013 458 S. Santa's present... After 3 sessions, I get the "brake pads worn, go to the dealer" signal. Back to the pit garage, I check the car and indeed, rear pads are almost gone, plus the calipers are TOAST - orange vs yellow (check pictures). WOW...

    I'm learning more and more about my 458, thanks to this awesome forum. Some background stories:

    - Bought the car in Oct 20 with 10k miles. First Ferrari, dream come true. Everything working really well. Only change I added was Novitec SS and lowered 25mm. I bought it to be driven both on the road and at the track.
    - In all this time, I've tracked the car 5 times (2x Thunderhill, 1 x Sonoma, 2 x LS).
    - I've also driven 10k miles, including lots of aggressive WE drives around the mountains here in NorCal.
    - I do drive the car in Race mode most of the time, including at the track... :(

    So lessons learned for me:
    - I've had no problems with the car, even tracking it and driving it hard, until I took it to LS. The hard breaking for T2 is definitely the hardest in all NorCal tracks. So when speaking about tracking the 458, we should probably be specific about the track circuit in question
    - I've come to realize, again by doing research, that the 458 'can' be tracked, but the GT3 (which I also own) is the better choice for the track. If I'm going to go to the track with the 458, it should not be LS and...
    - ...Even in those tracks that are not as hard on the brakes, I should take TC off. Again, another rookie mistake from my part

    Net, net, I'm going to replace both the rear calipers and pads (not just the pads, since I don't like the orange color at all), but I'm not going to do anything else. Just simply not ask the car to do more than it's built for. I do believe I'll be fine with that and, btw, I'm still madly in love with it, even with its limits ;)
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  6. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    Replace your rotors with Giro Disc steel rotors and Pagid RSL29 race pads. Your brakes will do just fine at Laguna Seca after this upgrade. I also recommend HEL steel brake lines (a no brainer at only $150 for the full set of 4 lines).

    I wouldn’t waste money on replacement carbon rotors, you will just trash them again, they run hotter than steel rotors and will overheat your whole brake system a lot quicker. Buy some used CCM rotors worth a little life left in them to throw on the car when you sell it, otherwise, go steel rotors and don’t look back. It will change the entire car for you on the track.

    100% of my braking issues on the 458 went away when I upgraded to Giro Disc steel rotors, Pagid RSL29 pads (yellow), and HEL steel brake lines. With these upgrades, the 458 feels like a Ferrari now.


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  7. PMiranda

    PMiranda Formula Junior

    Jul 23, 2004
    574
    Austin, TX
    Yeah, if only the rear brakes are overheating I’d say it’s the traction control. It might be slower, but I find it’s way more fun and rewarding to run with CT OFF and learn to modulate the throttle to manage oversteer. Practice on a wet skid pad if you have one available. You’ll learn more in 15 minutes there than in a week of lapping a dry road course.
     
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  8. Petrolhead#32

    Petrolhead#32 Formula Junior
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    Sep 23, 2020
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    Petrolhead#32
    Yup. The track day very wet (rained several times during the day) and cold (40-50 degrees).
     
  9. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    You’re a very brave man.

    I would avoid any track day in the wet. Not worth the risk, especially with the other drivers!


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  10. LivingthedreamBAB

    Jan 2, 2020
    123
    Full Name:
    BRIAN BUTT
    Agree. Rear brakes overheating is very likely traction control.

    Also second the Porsche comment for the track. Porsche #1 for the track, Ferrari #1 for shorter drives on the road, comfortable SUV for everyday driving.


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  11. Petrolhead#32

    Petrolhead#32 Formula Junior
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    Sep 23, 2020
    514
    NorCal
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    Petrolhead#32
    Forecast was partly cloudy so decided to go, but then it started raining right before 1st session. It was my first time in the wet and cold conditions. Trust me, I wasn't feeling brave at that point...

    But I also thought about it and it was a good opportunity to learn how to drive the car differently. I went last so all the cars were in front of me, and I gave it a go. Drove carefully to see how the car behaved. Right after corkscrew during 1st 2 laps I was sliding... :eek:. But turned out to be a pretty good day, with lots of fun and not so dangerous skidding. Not once did I go off track (and several drivers did). It's all about being smooth with the throttle, braking, and of course, that mega sensitive 458 steering.

    The main issue and lesson learned (again thx to this chat) is that the rear brakes take a much bigger beating because of the TC working so much more in the wet and because of the braking needed on T2 (from 127 to 40mph lap after lap). Plus the pads were already in pretty bad shape coming in.

    So now it's all about new pads and repainting the calipers. Also consider your suggestion of "Replace your rotors with Giro Disc steel rotors and Pagid RSL29 race pads. Your brakes will do just fine at Laguna Seca after this upgrade. I also recommend HEL steel brake lines (a no brainer at only $150 for the full set of 4 lines)."
     
  12. PMiranda

    PMiranda Formula Junior

    Jul 23, 2004
    574
    Austin, TX
    Oof. Yeah worn pads transmit more heat into the calipers/fluid than new pads. On the bright side, if you want a color other than yellow this is a perfect excuse to switch them up :)
     
  13. DanielCo

    DanielCo Rookie

    May 4, 2016
    1
    OK folks, clearly I love all things car but when some of these discussions get sideways, as in not always fact filled statements, I have to step in.

    Now there is solid truth to the fact that the standard street short chopped fiber CCM rotor will over heat when used at the track. The intent for these rotors wasn't for the track but for spirited street driving and more importantly, for their reduced weight which helps in several areas. Overall weight, unsprung weight and reciprocating weight along with a huge street life all of which helped all cars achieve measurably better performance numbers, making them an easy choice.

    These short chopped-fiber rotors are relatively easy to make (none of this is easy but we are speaking comparatively here OK?) which is why they are prevalent on so many cars. They meet all the parameters the OE's want including a couple laps at your favorite track but heaven forbid you stay out as these short chopped-fiber rotors will over heat. Because of their design these short-fiber rotors cannot move heat and as the poster pointed out, they are not even as good as your typical iron rotor on the track when heat can become an issue. However, and this is huge, ages ago racers figured that a long fiber carbon rotor was not just good at moving heat but superior to iron. A lot superior in fact. (see the figures below)

    At a glance you will quickly see that the short/chopped fiber CCM discs have the lowest conductivity but as can also be seen in the data, the long fiber construction has the highest conductivity. The test data numbers show the heat transfer rate between the various construction methods/material we’ve been discussing here. Note that these numbers are based on the Watts/meter Kelvin scale or W/mK for short. This is the measure for how much thermal power can be transmitted through the material a certain distance per degree of temperature difference.

    Short/Chopped fiber ceramic brakes are around 20-35 W/mK,

    Cast Iron is around 55 W/mK,

    Long fiber ceramic discs are around 100-120 W/mK.

    When carbon rotors were making a name, it was immediately apparent that these lightweight rotors would be a boon to any automobile but at the time no one knew how to use these fantastic rotors on the street since they didn't stop until hot. I mean as in no stopping until warm. Yikes!

    Along comes some super-smart person who figured out how to infuse carbon rotors with ceramic (which is why we now have CCM or carbon-ceramic-matrix) solving the cold braking issue. This CC matrix helped create the wonderful non-track short chopped-fiber sea of rotors. But luckily for tack folks, there were those pesky racer types who wanted to keep the huge advantages a lightweight carbon rotor brought to the table and suddenly there were a couple of enterprising companies who decided to ceramic-infuse these long-fiber racing rotors and here we are today. Most of the Hyper-Cars today use the long-fiber rotor exclusively not to mention a few Higher Performance cars as well. Yup, these manufacturers wanted to keep the incredible advantages of CCM brakes but did not want to limit their cars to a lap or two but as many as you wanted!

    The point to all this is that no longer do you track folks need to scale back the engineering put into their cars for old-school iron rotors, as the bad-to-the bone long-fiber CCM rotors will beg you for more. You can even use your RSL29 pads if you'd like (or a slew of other pads) because these long-fiber rotors are so robust pad choice is about your personal likes/feel and nothing to do with the rotor. There was a recent post mentioning that a racing series here in the USA is encouraging the use of the long-fiber brake rotor as they know that the competitors will appreciate the carbon rotors for their lap times as well as lower operating costs.

    I'll never ever slam anyone's rotor choices as each type of rotor exists for a reason leaving it up to you to decide which fits your bill. My only request is that when making the decision, don't use the initial buy-in pricing as a crutch because the long-fiber rotor will not only bring smiles per miles, but the resurfaceable long-fiber rotors will outlive anything else. OK, enough of my words but please continue to enjoy what we all know to be the worlds best sounding cars. How can anyone not drool over a flat plane crankshaft engine at a million revs, right? HNY to all.
     
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  14. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    This is a very informative post.

    That said, my experience with the CCM rotors has been nothing less than outright dangerous. CCM rotors must have sufficient cooling or else suffer serious fad.

    My Ferrari 458 Italia CCM rotors with Pagid pads were being worn at a very high rate and had temps exceeding 300*F more than steel rotors that would boil my Motul RBF 660 brake fluid. I would consistently and repeatably lose my brakes by the 3rd session on circuits that were medium-hard on brakes that gave little time between corners for brakes to cool. When I swapped to steel rotors, ALL my braking problems with the 458 were cured.

    The issue with CCM rotors on the 458 is well documented on this forum by many who have suffered similar failures on track. The common culprit? Ferrari’s CCM rotors.

    The 488 and F8 doesn’t suffer the issue nearly as much because of highly effective cooling ducts into the body and underpan. The 458 does not have this additional cooling and is therefore highly susceptible to dangerous fade on track when using the CCM rotors.

    On the 458 the solution is a complex retrofit of a mishmash of challenge car parts, or just get top quality steel rotors from Giro disc or AP for $3k and your problems go away.


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  15. wthensler

    wthensler F1 Rookie
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    Apr 27, 2015
    3,150
    Gator Country, FL
    Full Name:
    William
    Earlier this week I ran the 458 S at the FIRM in northern FL. It’s a small track, less than 2 miles, so tight and technical. There were only four of us, so it was heaven on earth. Lots and lots of track time and great tips. There was a 911 turbo and R8 with VF turbo there as well.

    I’m not an expert driver by any means (I have some track time and been to Corso Pilota), so I hired an instructor who brought his challenge car. Night and day difference.

    I experienced fade after a few laps of hard braking, though the top speeds were only in the low 120s. Mostly ran in Race mode.

    I agree the 458, as much fun and drama it brings (including the sound) is simply not a serious track car, and cooling (or lack of) is the main issue.
    That being its Achilles heel, the rest of the car is pretty . Screams, pulls decently and DCT is great.

    I’ll be at Sebring end of January (also with my instructor) and have Cup 2s and Pagid racing pads, and the Motul fluid. Also I’ll have the alignment set up per suggestions here.

    I won’t be running in TC off, I’d rather fry the caliper than the car, lol.

    Thanks to @Il-Copilota and everyone else here for sound advice.

    I am a firm believer in ‘testing’ the car, and the Ferrari is perhaps not the best for the track, but jeez is it a blast to run.

    I do have a STO, but I’m not ready to track it. A man’s gotta know his limitations, lol……The 458 will have to serve as trainer, lol.

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