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458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by JazzyO, Jun 15, 2011.

  1. andy c

    andy c Formula Junior

    Feb 19, 2011
    260
    I really dont see anyone getting banned for asking touchy questions,we are all big boys here,i think some of the single posters arriving on the forum,with nothing to contribute but fanboy isums and losers remarks dosent help anyone,and if anything creates bad feeling against ferrari owners,which really isnt the general case for most of us.
    These are the people who are not welcome,as it soon becomes pointless joining in '
    Thanks for listening
     
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  3. calitalia

    calitalia Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2009
    536
    There are good people. They are fine. I could post. No problem. My other fellow friend was banned.

    Dealers in US had sent some info when some asked for refunds to read.... The following:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8368343/Road-testing-under-the-microscope.html

    so the never ending debate.

    Mc people are all passionate towards McLaren. It is very good. Many were informative. The fact that I may decide or am asking for a refund is all personal. Nothing to do with the MP4-12C. I am sure it is a brilliant vehicle, to be honest.
     
  4. calitalia

    calitalia Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2009
    536
    Absolutely. Helpful and constructive comments are needed. Agree. McLaren is brilliant, so is a Ferrari. If the styling and features/characters like a super compliant ride suits me as well as the engine design, I am all staying. No problem. Again, the decision is highly personal. McLaren is still a great brand with a great leader who created a great engineering marvel, precise, to the core, to the point, point and shoot laser cutter! Brilliant still.
     
  5. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    83,556
    Vegas baby
    I stand corrected.
     
  6. Cavallini

    Cavallini Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,818
    You took the words right out of my mouth.

    I've never, ever witnessed this level of drama from a car company, especially after they promised the world and delivered a dud.

    Amazing and definitely reflective of Ron Dennis and his key team members. No way in hell would I want to do business with them.
     
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  8. calitalia

    calitalia Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2009
    536
    I was asked to wait for the customer delivery, word of mouth and test drive which will start as soon as August. However, for personal reasons, I have decided to instead of waiting for the test drive opt out for now. I am sure next year, I can still buy it then and decide when dealerships and service centres are more established. To me, it is the uncertainty of the whole dealership and service level/resale, relationship management that I was opting out.

    Of course the controversial side of the car is also a minor pointer for me to the future of the company and business style.

    In some sense, on a positive side for McLaren, there had never been a new supercar launch that had caused so much drama, debate and controversy except maybe for the last GTR V Porsche battle showdown. However, the 458 v McLaren certainly became War of the Worlds for this year and era and it will always be remembered. Many of us will still be amused and tuned into this Sunday's TG's episode. Good entertainment and I was told that it would pleasantly surprise and amaze fans. Who knows? Maybe they will shock us all.

    Sometimes, being talked about is better than not being talked about. At least it raised eyebrows. No one would talk much about a Superleggara versus a 458. Just not very debatable and controversial but this, provides us all with a lot of drama. Very good in that sense.

    When I get my refund back and if I do, I will start looking for a slightly used 458 next year. I know I will be happier staying loyal to Maranello but that's just me. I had never been into British supercars, not Lotus (except that white one in James Bond who went submarine mode), not Aston and certainly not Jag.
     
  9. calitalia

    calitalia Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2009
    536
    #1007 calitalia, Jul 8, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    Furthermore and long for short, the McLaren is currently a completely new project and no customer car delivered and even posting of pictures on pending customer delivery may cause a lot of controversy. It is a car with much drama. Some pictures were posted on pending delivery and looks like LHD in US are ready. I was explicitly informed clearly that any test done were all on PROTOTYPES as there were no real production cars ready for testing so maybe the battles were not fair as they were done on prototypes with no tuning and not of customer delivery conditions. Anyway, the facts are so intricated that I would want to stay out of the drama for now. I prefer to stay with my heart and my heart is still with Ferrari and I know. My brain maybe with the McLaren but I will go with my emotions.

    I just need to start chatting my dealer up for a refund which I suspect will take a long long time. It's never easy highly likely. (maybe it would be cos they are sold out till 2013 so the dealer may want me off, who knows, fingers crossed).
     
  10. cka

    cka Formula 3

    Oct 12, 2009
    2,036
    botanic gardens
    Full Name:
    king
    You sound like a very confuse car owner. Do you know what you are looking for in a car? List down your needs and priorities. Go test drive both cars and the car that fits your needs must be the one you buy. No need to get all excited when a car review says good or bad things about the car. You currently own a California and if you like a car like a Cali, than a 458 or McLaren is not the car for you unless it's an additional car.
     
  11. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    3,743
    Cheshire
    Regardless of which car is faster round a track, they are both good cars aimed at different customer segments. I want McLaren to be successful because competition is good for the prospects of future Ferrari cars.

    Having said that - McLaren need to have a serious look at the quality of their marketing department because this whole episode has not exactly gone to plan for them. When you put cars in the hands of the press for testing and comparison purposes, you had better make sure that you give out a properly finished and set up product (which Ferrari is fanatical about as we all know). Handing out worn out, part finished prototype build cars is asking for a world of pain...
     
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  13. fuse

    fuse Formula Junior

    Aug 11, 2004
    340
    I enjoy reading these type of bantering back and forth, it's fun, it's part of what enjoying cars has been about. It shows the passions we all have for the special cars, marques that we love.

    I also enjoy reading magazines, blogs, car shows on tests and comparisons. They are also fun. In fact, I think it is one of the reasons I like TopGear...they really just don't take it that seriously, poke fun at everything...but the passion for the cars is clearly there. It's fun the Jezza keeps bagging on 911 while Hamster makes lame ass reasons that it is the best. Don't forget how godly Aston Martins are. :)

    The shows, articles etc my get me excited about a car or re-ignite interest in one, they have never actually helped me make any decision to buy a car. Specially the cost of the cars we are talking about here. You've got to drive it, and love it to spend your hard earned money on it. You may choose to do so with completely different reasons then others, but it's your car and your passion for it, who cares what others thinks of it.

    Does/did Ferrari cheat? Shrug. Maybe they did, may be they didn't, doesn't matter to me. I drove an earlier delivery 458 in socal my friend bought and I couldn't stop thinking about it. It was just fast, it didn't have corsa tires and had the grip, so much mechanical grip. While I love my Stradale, I felt that the 458 is the Ferrari I want. No, it doesn't have the raw and edgy nervousness feel, but the car just fits me, spoke to me, and does what I want and when I want to. I didn't have the room for both, and I still agonized over 6 months about it before deciding to part with the Stradale. Nothing or no one could really advise me one way or another...I just finally realized that for the years I had the GT3 and Stradale, and as much as I love GT3, almost all opportunity I had to go out for a spin, I took the Stradale. I suspected that I'd do the same with 458. Decision made.

    Maybe it is a coincidence that Harris' test cars vs customer cars were "different", or may be not. Years ago when I first realized that I could afford a Ferrari, started looking at 308/328, but ultimately I decided to get a F355 or 360. A fellow racer I met gave me one Ferrari buying advise that I stuck to. "While Ferraris are getting better with more consistency, they are just not. Test drive them all." He took me out driving in his 95 F355 and 360 (both 6-speed manual). We swapped cars a few times, and clearly the F355 pulled harder and accelerated the same pace as the 360. He told me that he felt that his F355 was a "better" F355, and the 360 was not as good as the demo car he drove before ordering his. That said, I had driven many Stradales and they all felt the same to me.

    I was invited to a Ferrari survey day that took us driving in Malibu, with a 997 Turbo, Gallardo spyder, F430 and F430 spyder and gave them the feedback. (BTW, 458 felt like they listened!) I can assure you that the F430 that we drove that day was better than any F430 I've driven before. I did ask if that car was different, and was told that the only difference was that it had European ride height and alignment. It did bottom out in a couple of the corners on the uphill run. Maybe small adjustments makes really big differences, who knows unless we get to control and test them ourselves.

    I am sure all kinds of things are being said at McLaren for some PR damage control. Just like Ferrari response to Harris' rant. At the end of the day, people can feel what they want to feel based on the press...but really not all that many can afford to buy these cars, and the ones that can should test the cars and see if they like them to decide to buy them. I am sure the MP4 will be a wonderful car. Maybe the "they are all prototypes" is true or just considered all are prototypes until it beats the 458. Whatever. When it is out, and I can drive one, I will. If I love it, I will make that decision then. It's a lot of money for blind faith and words of others.

    Calitalia, I don't see why you'd be worried about getting your deposit back. I canceled my order for SLS and 918 and got the deposit back promptly. It should not be a problem. I can't imagine any reputable dealer would risk a small deposit amount for a potential customer and negative PR.
     
  14. calitalia

    calitalia Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2009
    536
    I am pretty sure I want the 458 over the McLaren. I have driven the 458. Furthermore, California is a GT and I want to experience a mid engine V8. So I am pretty clear and sure.
     
  15. calitalia

    calitalia Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2009
    536
    Well said. Fingers crossed on deposit. I think you are right. I test drove the California, very soft compliant GT for work and I test drove the 458, also very everyday yet with a mid engine aggressiveness to it.

    As far as I know, the 458 makes my heart skips a beat. So that's it. Clearly, over here, 500K USD for a car has to be craziness to most. With that said, such money should be happy money spent on an emotional and sometimes irrational purchase so it should always be something that sings to me.

    I love the look of the 458, above and beyond the McLaren, Lambortghini Aventador, SLS and R8, it is to me the most beautiful mid engine V8 icon of Ferrari. So when my refund comes back, I should be ready to plunge for a 458 as they free up next year (used). I prefer new but that I will have to line up till 2013...
     
  16. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 29, 2010
    14,184
    Wyoming
    Why do you say/think that they are aimed at "different customer segments"?

    I think quite the opposite. Macca is clearly going after folks who consider F-cars in their buying decisions and the 458 in particular has a target on its bumper from the MP4-12C...sure a new brand could expand the size of the segment (like with any luxury brand), but how do you manage to define two whole different "segments"?
     
  17. Cavallini

    Cavallini Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,818
    Controversy is indeed good but as Dennis is learning, it can seriously backfire and become your worst nightmare. I believe that was the cover of Car wasn't it....McLaren's Worst Nightmare, or something to that effect.

    I think these myriad problems are considerably deeper than Mclaren is saying or some people think. These problems aren't just computer chip problems. They're fundamental to the entire set-up of the car. The engine and the turbos.....the brake-steer and the "no nanny" ability of the car's dynamics.....to me require a much deeper solution than just changing the power.

    Unless, of course, Mclaren's wants to give every driver instructions on how to drive the car to its best ability.

    I think you'll be very happy with your decision, this year and five years from now.

    And if I were a potential investor I wouldn't want to assume 48% of the responsibility but still have Dennis as the final decision maker. Not after watching this fiasco. No way, jose.

    This has gone from a disappointing car to a complete corporate/brand PR meltdown.

    And who knows what kind of margins they're really making on each car???

    Bottom line is Ferrari has been making road cars for probably longer than Mclaren has been in existence (feel free to correct me on this). That experience cannot be learned or duplicated with clever computers and a carbon tub. Racing experience is not road experience.

    Lambo took the smart way by always being wilder and more brawny than Ferrari, so the competition was actually indirect.

    Mclaren might learn. Dennis is such a know-it-all though, it makes me skeptical.

    As far as Brit cars overall, I like the DBS and the recent Jags. They're beautiful, distinct and seem to perform well for the segment. Old Uhlrich has Aston in a solid direction, although I don't know how long he'll be able to nip and tuck Fisker's design.
     
  18. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 11, 2008
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    Vegas baby
    #1015 TheMayor, Jul 8, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    I've said many times that McLaren was going after the wrong target. But, for some reason, they have this "Ferrari" mentality.

    The REAL market for this car was Porsche and Audi people. But, what he's created is too expensive. If they had made it about 50 grand less with almost similar performance, people would be calling Ron a genius. That market can absorb 4 to 6K more cars worldwide easily. He'd have his factory humming and be paying back his investors hungry for the next target.

    Ron wanted to hit one out of the park. Instead he got a nice single, maybe a double. It's not an error but he could have done a lot better.
     
  19. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 29, 2010
    14,184
    Wyoming
    Interesting. This "going after Porsche", which in my mind means a circa $100k very sporty car with daily-driver ability, is very popular but everyone has largely over-priced the target. The first one I recall was the V8 Vantage. Then the R8. In some ways the GTR and the Z06 and ZR1 too (at lower tit-for-tat pricing to say GT3 or 997S and 997TT respectively).

    Next up is Lotus (sorta already) and Macca too with a future car IIRC...

    I don't fault Macca for trying to make a very exotic car ala 458 or Gallardo...I applaud the addition to the class and the competition. Certainly they can easily be accused of over-selling/hyping the car in retrospect...this launch seems pretty well bungled at this point and was high risk to begin with no doubt...we'll see if they can regroup and get a very nice car into the market with appropriate dealer/service support. I think they will but it will likely be financially very bloody for their investors...I know others will disagree, but I don't think being the "very fastest in a straightline and/or around the track" is most important in this class...but that's just my opinion...we'd all drive ZR1's with slicks if that mattered most ;-)
     
  20. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    83,556
    Vegas baby


    The problem is -- if you're going to "bet the farm" on a new business venture, why put all the eggs in top basket when there's plenty of low hanging fruit around?

    The success of the Audi R 8 and R 10 show that McLaren could have easily entered this market at about 150K and sold their 4 to 6 thousand cars instead of trying to actually outsell Ferrari at $250K out of the box.

    Ron said in an interview he wanted McLaren to be "the best". Well, if that was the case, why go after the 458 at all? Why not go after Pagani or Bugatti? Aren't they faster?

    There would have been nothing wrong to go after Porsche and Audi in the sub 200K/ daily driver category. The only thing wrong with it is that he couldn't try to outdo "Ferrari".
     
  21. Ripped Fat

    Ripped Fat Karting

    Oct 28, 2010
    74
    Apologies if someone already asked this but how does one prepare a ringer to lose 120kg?! Presumably the testers would notice if there was no interior trim on the car.

    Furthermore, I understand Ferrari uses a really heavy exhaust and battery. With all the chest thumping at McLaren about leading edge tech applied to weight saving, would it really be that simple for the Ferrari to match or beat the Macca's weight by just changing the exhaust and battery?

    Last question, is carbon THAT much lighter than aluminum??
     
  22. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 11, 2008
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    #1019 TheMayor, Jul 8, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011

    All of this ringer "weight saving" stuff is nonsense because the 12C beat the 458 in a straight acceleration but LOST on the track. If there was a ringer with weight, the 458 should have won the drag race. You would have to believe that Ferrari sandbagged the acceleration test just to make the race lap look legitimate.

    There's only one conclusion you can have if the 458 lost the acceleration test and won the track test: the 458 handles better, has better brakes, or better controls -- at least on that day. Also, one other conspiracy theory can be bashed: We know the 458 didn't have better tires.
     
  23. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
    13,234
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    Dr. Dumb Ass
    Don't forget, even as great as the F1 was, it didn't hit its sales targets either.
     
  24. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    Dec 29, 2007
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    Jeff
    you really underestimate the jedi mind tricks that a 458 "ringer" can play ...

    * The Ferrari 458 was such a ringer, it magically caused the Porsche to ALSO be faster in the CAR MAGAZINE test

    * The Ferrari 458 was such a ringer, it magically caused the Lambo convert to ALSO be faster in the CAR MAGAZINE test

    * The Ferrari 458 was such a ringer, it not only caused a suspension failure in the MP4 tested by CAR severe enough to create excessive body roll and premature ABS intervention ... it also tricked the mind of the Stig to not notice any of this

    * The Ferrari 458 is such a ringer, that it even caused the MP4 to bust a nut when Jason and Tiff tried to turn off traction control

    * And of course, the best ringer-jedi mind trick of all, the Ferrari 458 was such a ringer that every single journalist preferred it in every single subjective comparison ... while not a single one noticed the substantial power increase, higher rev limit (!), super-light weight, etc.

    Yep ... that 458 has magical powers indeed :)
     
  25. Tifosi15

    Tifosi15 Formula 3

    Jul 15, 2009
    2,076
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    Bryan
    Post of the year!! :p

    I love it :)
     
  26. Cavallini

    Cavallini Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,818
    I'm not as optimistic as you about this. I think this car has serious issues. The Porsche and the drop Lambo beat it around a track. Very, very bad. It should've smoked both of them, on any track.

    Besides, 50K less means no carbon tub.

    Dennis made up his mind to promise the world before he really knew how to deliver it. That's a huge mistake and one he's going to have to work mightily hard for years to overcome.

    It's going to be interesting.
     
  27. Cavallini

    Cavallini Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,818
    Definitely post of the year. hahaha
     
  28. Cavallini

    Cavallini Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,818
    You're absolutely right about this. Yet another strategic fumble by Dennis. THAT car would have been the money-maker and given them plenty of breathing room for the Ferrari-beater.

    Finally, I think you're right in that ultimately it was a matter of Dennis' ego wanting to compete with and beat Ferr-a-ri.

    Hard lessons for a hard-head. haha This is really going to be interesting, both Mac's "corrected" cars and/or further excuse making and Ferrari's upcoming cars. I honestly don't think they'll feel any urgency to do anything to the 458, esp. now that the drop-top is coming. Then the 599 and Enzo replacements will again take the automobile world by storm, like the FF and 458 and GTO.

    Dennis better hope Lotus new cars don't perform as well as they look b/c if they do, he'll truly be "azz-out" as my younger brother says. lol
     

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