458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Awesome post Jeff!
I wonder now if during the tests there was an old man in a brown robe walking about, passing his hand across the test drivers faces as they got into the Mac..............

"this..... is not the car your looking for..............."

 

Correct.
Mc Laren F1 is one of finest sport car ever built, thanks to the Gordon Murray's genius.
But ... It was a waste of money for the company.
About 64 F1 road car sold, 106 in total with other road going variants and racing cars.
Of course, this car is a legend (see also its racing results) and the arrival of a new Mc Laren road going sport car was consequently waited as the new Messiah

 

Their product plan includes a car that is price lower than the MP4-12C. I don't know if their pricing policy is target at that 50 grand less segment but it will be lower than the MP4-12C.There will also be a higher end model which may compete with the likes of an Enzo replacement. Obviously, there will be spyder versions as well.The entry of McLaren is a good thing for all of us as all three major players, Ferrari, McLaren and Lambo will up their game to compete for our attention. Other brands like Lotus and Porsche are also entering this market segment giving us more choice. The entry of McLaren has already stir so much emotions. The 458 is my fifth Ferrari and i have enjoyed every single one i have had. However, i am also interested to try other brands like Lambo and McLaren. Both the MP4-12C and the LP 700 are exceptional cars which everyone should be happy to drive and own.

 

My understanding is that the 12C is their "base" model and that they have plans to make a competitor to the uber cars ($1m +). Better sort out the handling if they want to have a go.

 

Do you know what the biggest problem for Mclaren is?, they're trying to replicate what Ferrari do both in racing and now with road cars, trying to "out Ferrari" Ferrari, without understanding what makes Ferrari so special.

Like so many other manufacturers, they think that all you have to do to beat Ferrari is make a car that is faster than the equivalent Ferrari and it's job done. The problem is, they haven't paid heed to the lessons of the past, Honda springs to mind straight away (see post #69 in this thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329016&page=4 ).

I started reading the first few pages of this thread and was mesmerised by the fugnugget who kept going on and on about lap times and on track driving like that is the be all and end all of a great road car!. They are making the exact same mistake that McLaren have made, just because a car is faster doesn't automatically make it better. There are plenty of cars that are faster than a lotus Elise, but the vast majority of them are no where near as entertaining to drive. Personally speaking, I've owned £500 mini's that were far more entertaining at 30 mph than other car's I've owned doing 150 mph that cost twenty times as much!.



As I posted in the other thread:

As I see it, the lesson that McLaren needs to learn is: When it comes to Ferrari, It's not the speed you achieve, it's the way you achieve the speed.

 

If I was McLaren, it's not Ferrari that I would be worried about, but Lotus. At least we know what they're planning on doing and have a real product portfolio. Their launch strategy needs some work, but the vision is there.

There is Ferrari and the garagists, the latter may win championships and upset the former from time to time, but end of the day, some of us want to have a car and not have to explain to everyone what it is.

 

Most car owners share similar opinions like you. They like others to know they own a nice car like a Ferrari. The selection of a car like a Ferrari for many is a statement that they have arrive. For some, they don't care if their car is easily recognized. They buy the car they like and that's all that is important to them. Different strokes for different folks. No right or wrong here.

 

The problem with Lotus at the moment is that "vision" is all they have. Every month they come out with renderings of what they're planning to make and sounding as if they are about to change the supercar market like never before, but there's no substance to their claims.

The last release I read from Lotus was how they were planning a car that would be superior in every way to both the 458 and the MP4 and it would be ready for release in three to four years time!. As soon as I read that, My first thought was:

"So you're going to make a car that is better than ones that were designed half a decade previously, big deal!".

Had they said it would be superior to the forth coming replacements for the 458 and MP4 then that would be more impressive (even more so if they actually made the car rather than just keep showing computer generated renderings!)

 

Sounds like McLaren, no? Same play book?

 

Lotus is not in the league of Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche or McLaren. They don't have the technological expertise or the funds to develop a car that can really compete.

 

Finally Top Gear gets its act together...

http://transmission.blogs.topgear.com/2011/07/08/video-jeremy-introduces-episode-three-in-our-new-series/

 

Interesting. The website says the video is unavailable, check back soon?

 

Odd, working for me. Maybe not in your country.

 

Working now. Thanks

 

seems like that episode is gonna be amazing

 

Let's hope we are wrong and McLaren is indeed better than we thought but I would want you to be right in that I know, for a fact, that my decision to pick the 458 over the MP4-12c will be the happiest one, this year taking back deposits, and taking on even a slightly used MSRP 458 next year and for 5 more years to come waiting for my replacement.

I actually think driving my California for the next 3 years over a Macca will still reward me with more satisfaction and resale value.

I don't doubt Ron's and the brand's technical expertise. I do doubt that currently, the racing heritage carrying over to road car heritage will have some disconnect and lots of ironing out and it won't happen for 5 months, let alone 5 years. 5 years, it is still not ready. Why, dealership setup, network, service centre. Everything is new and even the full technical team. It is boutique but a startup that takes time to gain brand value and loyalty, beyond and above 5 years. For the same money, I'd rather go with an old hand. To me, brand value wise, there's always only one, Ferrari is still no. 1 and the best. Lambo has merits for being more poisonous, aggressive... and different for the sake of being different but its lack of racing history in F1 makes for it to always follow one step behind Ferrari.

 

Agree. This is a halo car. It should at best be priced on level with SLS. To make it more attractive, it should be priced as as a R8 V10. However, it is priced above and beyond the 458 with less option (no CCB and all). I don't think it has what it takes to be priced at the same niche and level as the 458. Not yet.

 

Very interesting indeed, much awaited. I think Ron Dennis is back in vengence. They went to work last week.

http://www.gtspirit.com/2011/07/09/top-gear-season-17-episode-3/

In case you wondered what happened to the Jeremy Clarkson review of the McLaren MP4-12C that was promised for the second episode, well they probably needed some time to make a new one or re-edit it to exceed Fifth Gear’s test of the McLaren MP4-12C versus the Ferrari 458 Italia. Not surprisingly the Top Gear review in Episode 3 of Season 17 features the exact same cars and venue: the Ferrari 458 Italia vs the McLaren MP4-12C at the Top Gear test track.

So they had to make a new one? New episode, new car, new test, new prototype? This is PR emergency plan A! After 7/7 battle annihilation.

I think the McLaren is a great engineering marvel for a startup. Great try. Brilliant machine. However, it underlivered by overpromising the public. It will be a HALO car like R8 but it will never be able to best Ferrari as it originally claimed. It was the wrong mission.

Let's see if they really did some PR damage control.

 

Four big mistakes McLaren has made so far:

1) Trying to go directly against Ferrari and Lamborghini (Audi) in a world-wide launch with their first product.

2) Overpromising both performance and delivery

3) Being oversure of themselves and their product

4) Not having a proper PR department in place to properly clean up this mess.


Building a car is only part of the tast. Building the proper management team is much more difficult. McLaren is only now beginning to understand this problem. How they deal with it in the next year will make or break them.

Personally, I am concerned that Ron's personality and work style doesn't allow staffers the avenue for free expression to question the company's direction. You can't run a product development company the way you do a race team. In the race team, you have one customer -- the driver -- with very specific requirements. For a car company, you have thousands each with their own demands and requirements.

That's thousands of times more difficult. The two organizations are apple and oranges.

 

They should have gone to work months ago. The car magazine tests must have been well known way before they went to press. There is no excuse for sitting around while you know that each of them is not going to recommend your product and wait for the public to react with nothing to be said from McLaren about it other than "Ferrari cheats" and our car was broke.

Whoever is running their PR and company relations needs to be fired.

 

I have a friend who used to work for McLaren and that would be exactly his description of how Ron runs the business.

 

So it is the ultimate wankermobile...

 

I have no doubt that at some point McLaren will make a great looking and driving super car...they just don't have one at the moment, IMHO. More precisely, they just don't have one that I'm interested in owning.

 

Exactly. I said that about Dennis in another thread or somewhere earlier in this one. A corporation is an entirely different beast than a team, even if the corporation is small. That's almost like taking an NFL HC and putting him in charge of the company that makes cleats and shoulder pads.

You have to think SOMEONE anticipated these problems but didn't feel like they could speak their mind because of Big Boss Know It All Ron.

Tough lessons. We'll see. Meanwhile, it seems Ferrari's about to really knock the ball out of the park with the 458 spider. So Mac will be competing against used 458 hardtops for 2nd or 3rd place, maybe even 4th if they can't beat Porsche.

Lambo's due for a Gallardo replacement soon aren't they? lol

 

Thanks for the confirmation. It's written all over the place with this epic fail. Great to hear there is fire behind all this smoke we're seeing. haha