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458 Italia vs McLaren MP4 Blighty - The UK press decides

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by JazzyO, Jun 15, 2011.

  1. Cavallini

    Cavallini Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,818
    Yeah, they're trying to stop the bleeding but I think it's too late in this round. Better call a TO and re-group. Maybe that's what this is.

    It's just so comically ironic how badly the Brits wanted to like, no, LOVE, this car and it failed so UTTERLY. I give them respect for not sugar-coating it too much, at least most of them, EVO being the outstanding exception.
     
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  3. calitalia

    calitalia Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2009
    536
    Let's hope Ron Dennis to a supecar company is what Steve Jobs is to the high tech World. Steve is well known to be quite a figure in terms of being self-willed and only if Ron Dennis is as good as Steve, the MP4 would have taken the World by storm like what iphone did to Nokia and Motorola. It was only a few years ago that Charlie's Angels were still using the Nokia phone when it was so popular. Then came along a genius, that had never made a phone, and he changed the World...

    Ron is a great man with a great goal to achieve but whether or not he has what it takes... I am not qualified to comment.
     
  4. calitalia

    calitalia Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2009
    536
    Epic journey with an Epic ending...
     
  5. fuse

    fuse Formula Junior

    Aug 11, 2004
    340
    Steve Jobs and Apple tend to not promise to be beat the competition, they tend to not promise product specs or over promise. They tend show their product, why they think it's great, and why you may want one. It doesn't seem like Ron Dennis at all... Promising they best car ever, better than existing product, etc. If any thing, he is behaving more like Google with Android.


     
  6. Superquant

    Superquant Formula Junior

    Apr 27, 2009
    423
    Steve Jobs and Ron Dennis aren't even in the same galaxy when it comes to making amazing products for consumers ..
     
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  8. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Or styles. Jobs has incite and vision but leaves the details to others. Ron is the detail guy who obesses like that character Monk. Making the assembly room of his factory 99 meters instead of 100 because he didn't want to trim the tile unevenly just shows far eccentric he has become with the idea of perfection.

    Jobs doesn't want or care about perfection. He wants sales -- Apple sales.
     
  9. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
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    Onno
    #1057 JazzyO, Jul 10, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
    Well, the long-awaited Top Gear test of the MP4 was just on in the UK, the lap just finished 1 minute ago.

    It was nice viewing it in HD - film quality was jaw dropping, even if the car wasn't (I mean styling wise).

    The whole message was the same as before - 458 is stockings, MP4 is tights.

    However, the laptime was surprising: 1:16.2 (I think). The 458 did it in 1:19.1.

    I imagine there are Mac lovers all over the world now rejoicing. Well done boys - your car was finally quicker on the track. It's still not going to tempt me, sorry.

    But the difference in speed surprises me, compared to previous tests. Suddenly this car is miles, and miles, and miles quicker than the 458? Interesting....


    Onno
     
  10. andy c

    andy c Formula Junior

    Feb 19, 2011
    260
    #1058 andy c, Jul 10, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
    sorry,but the 1:19.1 was done in a 2010 car,not one of the current 2 press 458,s,now all things being true,do you not think one of those would do 1:15.8,or are we back to the conspiracy theory?
     
  11. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
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    Onno
    It's a bit hard to understand this laptime and not think every single other test was using different cars. Everything is so up-and-then-down all the time that it's very hard to understand what is what. The one thing I do believe is that Ferrari is not the only one who has been tweaking their car.

    But frankly, I am bored by the whole thing. The fact that the MP4 was so much quicker doesn't threaten my manhood. For fun, I think I'll visit the McLarenLife site next. There must be fireworks going there....


    Onno
     
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  13. andy c

    andy c Formula Junior

    Feb 19, 2011
    260
    i was told it was about this laptime a year ago,thats when they told me they did 1:18.9 in the 458,so yes as ive said before ,we are all big boys,the 458 is a fantstic car,but i would really like tv599 or 458 FNE
     
  14. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran

    Feb 22, 2004
    6,241
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    Tom Wiggers
    Ricoh Aficio MP4-12C, 12 pages a second........
     
  15. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm happy the 12c was faster. I'm happy for anyone who's thinking of buying one that it finally showed it's legs.

    But, it doesn't make any difference to me. Mac lost me when they carved that body. As much as I like the technology, I need a pretty face to go with my 300 grand.

    I buy a car for the art, not the science. If I can get both, so much the better.
     
  16. Luque

    Luque Formula Junior

    Oct 16, 2009
    473
    Italy
    Andy,
    Why do you still live in denial ?
    First at the moment all Mp4 tested are prototypes, so I think it's not polite talking about 458 press car representativity and so on.
    Second if the 458 press car DP544TV plate (tested by topgear) was a ringer how it's possible Mclaren improved dunsfold lap time with a Customer car ?
    I asked you this question in another forum but, obviously, I get no answer from your side.
    That 458 press car lapped Bedford in 1:20,3 so still faster than MP4 with sport tyres PZero (1:20,6)
    Now magically (ok, track is different and it's MP4 home) there is a 3s gap difference.
    More fith gear do same test on same track with different results.
    Waiting for your comments.
     
  17. Superquant

    Superquant Formula Junior

    Apr 27, 2009
    423
    I am a huge admirer and student of Steve Jobs and on the contrary he *does* care about perfection and details, and also does obsess over the smallest of details in his products. HOWEVER, what puts him on another planet compared to all the impostors like Ron Dennis is that Jobs fuses science with LIBERAL ARTS, aesthetics, and a supernatural ability to predict what can truly delight people. This process requires giving equal balance to both sides of the brain in the product creation process. If you watch many of Steve's talks and interviews he talks about how Apple hires just as many liberal arts graduates as they do engineers and scientists, because Apple products live at the intersection of those two worlds, and that is what makes them special.

    In contrast, Ron Dennis' products are born and live in a place where specifications and pure engineering are the determinant of what makes a good product, and this is why he will perpetually be a second rate car producer compared to Ferrari and other brands like Pagani that understand what appeals to the human psyche.
     
  18. andy c

    andy c Formula Junior

    Feb 19, 2011
    260
    #1065 andy c, Jul 10, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
    I dont think im in denial,ive never said 544 was a ringer,when that car was run they didnt have any real competition,and you can only compare cars on the same track on the same day,and 5th gear was mainly about promoting tiff and jason,afterall the 12c still was only 0.1 slower,
    If you think the 12c was a ringer,thats fine,how would you like it,NEW 12c ringer quicker than 458 ringer,or 458 customer slower than 12c customer car,this we can only know in a few months when they are available.
    These opinions are pointless untill then,i will be comfortable if im wrong ,because the 12c is the car for me,and i would have had a 458 if my Mclaren dream wasnt to come true as id always wanted an F1
    Thing is will you be comfortable if you are wrong,i think not looking at your posts elsewhere
    ps,im sorry i didnt reply to you ,ive just found it on fastestlaps,sorry i havent looked there for a few days,and was following your discussion with someone else,my apologies
     
  19. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    I guess I said it wrong about Jobs. Because I agree and disagree to what you say. Yes, he does care about specific details very much. But, he doesn't care about every single piece of code written into Apple's programs. He's very much about user issues, appearance, and marketing and leaves a lot of the technical stuff to others.

    That was the point I was trying to make.

    Ron however can't give up any part of the process.
     
  20. Lesia44

    Lesia44 F1 World Champ
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    Aug 5, 2009
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    The important thing about Jobs is that, while he obsesses about every little detail, he also knows when to let people like Ive do their thing.
     
  21. Superquant

    Superquant Formula Junior

    Apr 27, 2009
    423
    #1068 Superquant, Jul 10, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
    Here is the review from TG

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUVUTiuY4Ow[/ame]

    'Lack of joy'
    'Engineers at mclaren would have to look up the definition of the word "fun" in a dictionary"
    'No zing'

    etc

    Impressive lap time, would be important if I were buying the car to win some kind of time trial.
     
  22. Luque

    Luque Formula Junior

    Oct 16, 2009
    473
    Italy
    Andy,
    I didn't say or write that TG used a ringer MP4.
    The fact is that you, Kryzs and few other Mc life members have repeatedly affirmed Ferrari used ringers in their comparison test. And all of you refused totally any technical explanations just because, MP4 can not be slower than a 458. Weight, tires and so on have been just discussed and clarified in this forum referring to facts.
    So we are all happy here that finally Mc Laren showed its true performance in its home track but please stop to refer to 458 FNE or DP599TV as some kind of alien 458.
    In other word. Feel happy for victories but accept defeats without accusing others to cheat.
    Cheers
     
  23. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    Dec 29, 2007
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    Jeff
    Congratulations are indeed in order :)

    The MP4-12C had, what I suspect the lads at McLaren would consider, a GREAT performance on Top Gear. Well done!

    I think McLaren might, as indeed they should, consider the posted laptime a victory of precision mathematics & science over emotion. The very reason it didn't win Clarkson's heart, was undoubtedly accomplished intentionally. It's still a bit of a loss, subjectively, compared to the 458 ... but the laptime is impressive indeed :) Gotta give credit where it's due ...

    There are, naturally, a few questions (qualifications?) that come to mind:

    1. Is this really the same car (or same setup) tested by 5th Gear? Clarkson didn't have anywhere near the same difficulty in cornering. The Top Gear car did, however, exhibit some of the same instability in straight-line breaking.

    2. Well, the MP4 was developed on this very track, specifically ;)

    3. Accusations that are good for the goose ... are also good for the gander ;) Why the delay for the Top Gear test? Was McLaren busy fitting the Top Gear car with race-spec goodies from the GT3? Which car can customers buy ... the 5th Gear car, or the Top Gear car?

    But nonetheless ... congratulations, on a fine performance :)

    Hopefully we can now dispense with the Ferrari blame-game ...
     
  24. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #1071 TheMayor, Jul 10, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
    McLaren cheated!!!!! :)


    But seriously... we all knew the car was fast. The only surprise is that this is the first time it really showed what it can do.

    Fast is only one reason you buy a sportscar. For as many people who complained that by Ferrari having things like E-difs and F1 gearboxes that take away the flavor of driving, it seems like McLaren has gone to the extreme.

    Here's the other irony. For about 1/3 of the price of the McLaren, you can go around the TG track faster in an Ariel Atom -- and probably have a lot more fun doing it.

    We are all posers. None of us will ever do what the Stig did. We buy these for our own personal pleasure and drive them most of the time under 65 mph. If technology is your thing, the Mac is your car. If style and viseral stimulation are your thing, go for the 458. Both are fantastic and both are great cars.

    Luckily, people now have 2 choices that they can make in this segment. Good for McLaren for giving us that choice.
     
  25. Lesia44

    Lesia44 F1 World Champ
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    Notable that Clarkson said the car doing the lap had been fettled compared to the car he used for the test. No matter. Even when the Mc finally manages to put in a faster lap the tester still picks the 458. Clearly, then, the 458 is considered the better driver's car. And universally considered so.
     
  26. Luque

    Luque Formula Junior

    Oct 16, 2009
    473
    Italy
    +1
     
  27. lchavet

    lchavet Karting

    Oct 26, 2010
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    Laurent Chavet
    Nice time but how much of the difference can be attributed to the tires; one can briefly see in the clip that the Mc was running Corsa tires. 2 years back when TG tested the 458 they must have used standard tires.
    Also let's not forget that it is not the same driver and the new Stig has been posting some pretty amazing lap times.
    I prefer tests done on the same day with the same driver.
     
  28. Rcktrod

    Rcktrod F1 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2010
    3,946
    USA
    +1,000. End of argument!
     

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