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458 or 488

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ttforcefed, Jul 18, 2019.

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458 or 488

  1. 458

    163 vote(s)
    74.8%
  2. 488

    55 vote(s)
    25.2%
  1. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

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    I really doubt the F8 will be that different from the Pista in terms of driving; today's cars tend to be very versatile. I am sure the Pista is a significant improvement over the 488, but I guess it's more about progress and increased power than about the choice of a specific character; therefore I believe (and maybe hope ;) ) that the F8 has no reason to be dramatically different from the Pista apart from styling and pricing. Modern technology allows that there be no trade-off between comfort and sportiness, within expanded limits (of course there is the choice between a mid-engined 2-seater and a limo, but a mid-engined 2-seater can offer both sides while there is not much to gain from the claimed focus on one side).
     
  2. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Law of diminished returns and marketing.

    Some owners found that difference between the 458 and the 488 wasn’t enough to make the jump, despite the design refreshment and the massive power and torque increase.

    I can’t see many Pista owners trading in their cars after 12, 18, 24 months because they tried the F8 and said “oh yes, what a massive improvement, night and day, what a game changer, this is totally worth the extra money Ferrari is asking for, shut up and take my money and my special edition Pista”, when the F8 has virtually the same engine and exactly the same horsepower...

    But that’s just me. I can see and understand to a degree Italia, 458 Spider, GTB and/or 488 Spider owners getting curious or even tempted by the F8, but Pista owners? I just don’t see it.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  3. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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  4. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

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    Pista owners are not the target of the F8, since the F8 is marketed as a "lower" car - less expensive, less exclusive and less performing (this last point is the one I question, but Ferrari marketing is clear about it - they quoted the official Fiorano lap time of the F8 closer to the 488 than to the Pista exactly for that reason, but I really doubt it's accurate).
    My bet is that in terms of value for money, the F8 is better than the Pista - but I'm aware it also depends on what is considered as value. When I declined the Pista I just thought it was too expensive for what it was, and I was ready to keep my 488 - but when the F8 was presented, I evaluated it and decided to go for it.
     
  5. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    True, better stay on topic.

    One question:

    Interestingly enough, unless I’m very much mistaken, the 458 is one of the few Ferraris to come out without concrete performance numbers:

    0-60: *less than* 3.4 seconds.

    Top speed: *in excess of* 325kph.

    Not like the 488 (definitely 3 seconds) or the Pista (definitely 2.85 seconds). I wonder if that’s because if Ferrari revealed the exact 458 performance numbers, it would be almost the same or better than the 488 (in terms of top speed), due to its larger displacement engine, as mentioned here:



    Which would have undermined the launch of the new 488 which, for all intents and purposes, is one great Ferrari and the best turbocharged car out there.

    Controversial, I know. That’s why I’m not stating anything, merely asking and speculating.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.

    EDIT: I have 458 reviews that state a measured 0-60 time of 3 seconds and a top speed of 340kph.
     
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  6. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Which one was that? I've seen 3.2 to 3.4 ... I wonder if lower is a later ('15?) car.
     
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  7. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #332 PhilNotHill, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    458 wins. Ciao Bella!

    I will say l am VERY HAPPY with my 458 Spider. A thrilling ride indeed. I believe these guys nailed it.
     
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  8. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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  9. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #334 AlfistaPortoghese, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    Ryan,

    My apologies for the delay, I’m far from home at the moment and we’re in very different time zones.

    Nevertheless, unless I’m very much mistaken, it is a July or September 2011 comparison test by magazine Car and Driver, with a 2011 458 Italia, McLaren MP4-12 and the Porsche 911 GT2 RS.

    There is a performance comparison chart in that test, which I printed, that states those performance numbers for the 458 Italia I mentioned earlier.

    If someone also has that test/chart and can post it here, it will be very appreciated. If not, next time I’m home I’ll be more than happy to scan and post it.

    I have few doubts a 458 can do 0-60 in 3.0 seconds. There was a famous video of a Speciale barely keeping up with an Italia (press car?), let alone overtake it.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  10. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Update:

    Still haven’t got the chart at hand, but found the article in question:

    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a16642055/2011-ferrari-458-italia-vs-2011-mclaren-mp4-12c-2011-porsche-911-gt2-rs-comparison-test/

    And a print screen off my phone, pertaining to the test in question.

    They tested two 458 Italias in 2011:

    0-60 of the first test: 3.3 seconds
    0-60 of the second test: 3.0 seconds.

    Both real life, independent tests and measurements.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
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  11. PTG1

    PTG1 Rookie

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  12. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

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  13. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2017
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    It may seem impressive at first glance, but considering the mileage (409 miles) the car is virtually new and the owner has stored it for 6 years... not sure the cost of storage is even covered by this selling price...
     
  14. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #339 AlfistaPortoghese, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    Well I must say although the video clearly states it... I’m having trouble taking it in.

    I do get the 458 having similar numbers to the 488 on account of increased engine capacity, but that 488, if the video is to be believed, it is putting out a better 0-100kph and 0-200kph time than... a V12 LaFerrari hypercar, with 4 more cylinders and roughly 50% more power. Which if not by anything else, by the laws of physics, it is impossible if it is a stock 488 (and that’s what we’re comparing: stock 458 vs stock 488).

    The arab world has a strong and heavy tradition of aftermarket customization and engine tuning, and if I were a betting man, I’d bet that’s what we’re seeing here: an expensively and heavily modified 488, with little or nothing resembling stock.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  15. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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  16. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Doubt if any of us can tell 0.3 sec by the seat of our pants.

    5,280/60 = 88 ft per second

    0.3 seconds is 26.4 feet. A little more than a car length. Most of us would have to have a marker set up to see the difference at that speed.

    IMVHO this is no big deal.
     
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  17. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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    #342 Il Co-Pilota, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    Completely agree.

    Seeing that the drivetrain is virtually the same, I'm quite sure the Pista will in fact be the most special feeling of the two, and thus different.

    Had the F8 had more power like the 488 had o er the Speciale, it would have been a different story. But the F8 will be softer and heavier, so I cannot for the life of me, see how it can be on the same level.

    I'm sure those who have an F8 on order and not a Pista, are hoping for a car that truly rivals or even betters the Pista. However I doubt that this will be even remotely the case. These two cars were in fact developed very much alkng side each other, and I'm quite sure Ferrari has been conscious about making them different - both so they will not get issues with Pista owners, but also actively keep the Pista on top of the heap.

    Had the 488 had the Speciale engine, I'm sure the 458 Speciale would still be the more special of the two, and the fastest. But the 488 took a big leap in terms of power, and that kind of helped it establish itself as a strong performer compared to the Speciale. The Speciale is still the more focused and special of the two, but the 488 comes closer due to the power. The F8 don't have this advantage, and had it not been delayed, the F8 and Pista would have had to coexist much more like it was origi ally intended.

    Most of the times I've asked a Ferrari rep where the F8 fits in, I'm told it fits in between the 488 and Pista, not above both the 488 and Pista. Someone even hinted to me at one point that it was put together rather quickly as a bit of a sudden afterthought as a direct response to the 720S.
     
  18. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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  19. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

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    That does definitely not sound like a stock 488.

    I have never heard a stock 488 have so much unburnt fuel being lit on the overrun.

    I've seen v-box numbers supporting the 2.8-2.9 0-100 kph claims with hot MPSC2 rubber on, but this seems way past that in terms of how fast it goes to200 kph and beyond.

    Maybe a XXX Performance enhancment in play here? I believe their 488 mods yield between 800-950 hp depending on what stage you choose.
     
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  20. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    But wouldn't you agree if your showing clips of a standard 458 doing 3 seconds wont the 488 GTB be faster ? Because it is
     
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  21. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula Junior

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    Let's not compare the incoparable, the 488 eats any 458 no matter the version. And if you tune them, then you almost have a hypercar.
    We can talk about sound, driver feel etc, no problem but performance, come on lets go back to reality please.
     
  22. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Angelo,

    Agree wholeheartedly with you. I’m not in the business of denying the truth :D Even if 458 and 488 have similar 0-100kph times and similar top speeds, they do it in very different ways, and the 488 is always faster.

    If there was any doubt, it is quickly dissipated by analysing 0-200kph or 0-300kph times, Fiorano lap times or 80kph-200kph / 100kph-300kph kickdown times.

    And this is just on paper. On the road, it’s much clearer, and I feel in terms of handling and feel, the 458 Spider to the 488 Spider is a greater leap forward than the Italia to the GTB.

    What I meant (and was surprised about) was that such different cars in engine architecture and one being clearly faster than the other (the 488, 100 more horsepower, roughly 50% more torque), would have similar 0-100kph times and similar top speed (although the video says the 458 has a superior top speed, despite increased capacity I have my doubts). But I guess design and engine capacity do play a role. And Ferrari marketing, of course.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  23. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula Junior

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    I honestly dont belive both cars have the same top speed, the 458 has REAL (GPS) top speed of 315-320 km/h the 488 330-335km/h.
    And that's not even the thing, the time they take to reach top speed is the differentiator.

    That video of car guys is totally wrong when they compare numbers of both cars but everything else I agree.
     
  24. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Paulo,

    Couldn’t agree more.

    Just for the heck of it, I share the highest top speeds I’ve ever found at cutoff (none of them are mine):

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
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