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458 or 488

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ttforcefed, Jul 18, 2019.

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458 or 488

  1. 458

    164 vote(s)
    74.5%
  2. 488

    56 vote(s)
    25.5%
  1. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    I’d like to point out that I think that most of the time people say they don’t like the 488, they’re not saying it’s a bad or worse car. It’s just that some people don’t like the course Ferrari has chosen for the present and the future. Things that one didn’t associate with Ferrari until Marchionne, like: downsizing, turbo, hybrid, SUV, while the 458 represents the last hurrah for purists and one of the brand’s finest moments.

    In terms of Ferrari history and philosophy, the 458 is antagonist to the 488. For some, the most modern, faster car is always the better car. For others, the older car(s) are the epitome of what Ferrari represents. We’ve also seen this at Porsche: air cooled vs water cooled. It’s not that one is better than the other. For me, the 458 is a milestone car for Ferrari, the 488 isn’t. That’s one thing. A fact. Like saying the 488 is much faster than a 458 (although top speed is pratically the same, acceleration is brutal and MUCH different), or that the 458 sounds better than the 488. It’s pratically a matter of physics and mechanics: NA always sounds better than turbos, Ferrari or otherwise.

    I think the 488 isn’t a bad car, or a worse car. Just not as important in the grand Ferrari scheme of things. For some, the above and history are absolutely irrelevant. For others like myself, it’s vital: I like to own pieces of history, namely ones you know won’t come back.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  2. sampelligrino

    sampelligrino Formula Junior

    Apr 16, 2017
    560
    fair point and I agree that the 458 is iconic, in many ways. That being said I will say I liked how the 488 was the return of first mid engine V8 turbo since F40 (FWIW), which was cool - same for going back to cyl displacement for the name and GTB moniker to the 308 GTB, same for the side scoops.. I think the 458 engine won many awards but so has the F154 stemming from the 488

    Both are amazing, no need to get worked up either way and just drive and enjoy these awesome cars. I will always vote 488 over 458 no matter what because it's subjective, it was my first supercar and first Ferrari, my first specced new, etc...

    A lot of intangible reasons why one may prefer one over the other, not just the stats on paper or last of/first of etc
     
  3. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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    For those looking for a 488 the Vegas dealer has 12 on the floor (and several more with sold tags).
     
  4. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2017
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    The 458 introduced the DCT, which is brilliant for those liking progress (like me), but a let-down for people valuing tradition - the 430 Scuderia F1 robotised gearbox as a far more mechanical feeling, which should be praised by nostalgic people.
    So I really do not understand the case for the 458 - yes it's better than any cars before, but on the other hand it's not as good as the following cars.
    And for so-called "purity" it's already off-track on many levels, with the DCT and all the (again, brilliant but not fully resolved) electronics it embarks.
    A testarossa is pure crap (in terms of performance and efficiency) compared to a 458, but if someone worships authenticity and despise performance he'd rather look at one over an intermediate step like the 458.
    In short - to me the 458 is a nice car (and very good value for money in the current market) but I can't see how it could be considered as a milestone in any way (it's a different story for owners wanting their loved property to be valued by everybody ;) )
     
  5. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Although mostly contrary to my personal and biased opinion, I must say your post is very articulate and it gave me great pleasure reading it.

    In terms of milestones, I believe the 458 is indeed a milestone car. Whether it’s important or not to some folks is another matter entirely. Please allow me to explain a bit better what I’m on about and offer a contrary position. In terms of numbers and facts:

    - Last V8 Ferrari with Pininfarina badge.
    - First mid-engined Ferrari to have direct fuel injection.
    - First Ferrari to have a 9.000rpm redline.
    - First mid-rear engined Ferrari to have a double clutch gearbox.
    - Last naturally aspirated V8.
    - First V8 to surpass the 200mph official topspeed barrier.
    - First mainstream model not to be offered with an option of a manual, gated gearbox.
    - First Ferrari with aeroelastic wings.
    - World records for naturally aspirated production numbers that still stand: 127bhp per liter (Italia, Spider) and 134bhp per liter (Speciale, Aperta).

    And also a couple of intangibles:

    - Last V8 presented by Luca Cordero di Montezemolo.
    - Interior input directly given my one Michael Schumacher.
    - Triple pipe exhaust, homage to the F40.

    And more intangibles:

    “I wouldn't even care if this thing ate one of my legs. This is beyond anything. What a machine! The 458 is one of the all time greats. I really genuinely believe this is better than an F40. I never thought I'd say that, but it's true. It really is absolutely, unbelievably, mesmerizingly brilliant"


    "It's like driving something that is actually alive. One of the best cars in the whole of Human History. Ever. It just is".


    "It's the prettiest car Ferrari have made in the last 3 decades. And it drives even better than it looks"


    "Almost nothing on Earth is as good as this. Except something I just thought of including Cameron Diaz and some honey. But come to think of it, even that isn't as good as this"


    Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson


    "This car is the best thing in the world, isn't it?"


    "I love this car. This is my favourite ever car".


    "This is the best car I've ever driven, by a good way. It's just amazing!"


    Fifth Gear's Jason Plato.


    "It's the definition of a supercar. It's kind of a revelation really".


    Xcar's Alex Goy


    "Questa macchina è perfetta, è la cosa più giusta che podevano fare. Un modello fondamentale nella storia del cavallino"


    "La adoro. È stato un ritorno alla vera Ferrari."


    "La faccia della 458 è una cosa che... Me fa venire i brividi. Questa macchina è un ritorno al concetto originale di Ferrari, quello con che la Ferrari è nata".


    "Vent'anni di distanza tra la 458 e la F430. Dopo la 458, la F430 è come guidare la Panda del nonno"


    "Questo che deve essere una Ferrari".


    Drive Experience's Davide Cironi.


    "Farà storia".


    Ferrari Centro Stile's and Pininfarina's Donato Coco.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  6. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula Junior

    May 29, 2019
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    Very well put.

    One small correction. It was the California that introduced the DCT, not the 458.

    I can see why it can in some ways be considered a milestone car. But I think it's not so much the 458 being a milestone in itself, as much as it is that entire first DCT lineup that is a milestone leap for Ferrari. That generation introduced an entirely new level of quality and reliability - a bit like the 360/550 and 612 did over their former generation.

    But with that, something was lost. The gated shifter was gone, and so was some of the quirkyness that demanded a fairly high level of ownership dedication.
    The cars have become more accessible than ever, and the ease of maintenance and reliability, means that it takes less involvement being in a relationship with your Ferrari.
    Yes the 355 will spend a ridiculous amount of time in the shop, and yes, one will wonder why the seats in the Testarossa feels like they are not bolted down properly etc. But to some, that does not matter at all, and the few times it all snaps into place makes it all worth it. In my eyes purity and ownership commitment goes hand in hand. When people start talking a lot about depreciation, I start to wonder about the attachment and commitment the owner has, as it's a fairly new car.
    To me it seems like logic that the owner who is "devoted" to his or her car, is mostly interested in its attributes as a car, and not so much in next years value. This goes for F355's, 458's and 488's. When short term value, i.e a few years or less become a paramount point of reference, I can't help but seeing that as a sign that the cars has either lost some of their purity and appeal, or the owners are generally not as dedicated and committed to the cars.

    So what does this mean when we debate one vs. the other. Are we as pure in our dedication and commitment to these cars as we like ourselves and others to believe? Who knows, it's just a perspective on this whole discussion which is more pure. It's like the debate in the SF90 forum. Has Ferrari lost its soul? It's subjective. The cars are still designed and built by people with passion and dedication. We as users provide the cars with soul as they are inanimate objects, and what defines the essential purity is down to what we personally perceive as pure.

    There is something to be said for purity when the car can continue to function and provide its occupants with heaps of emotional feedback. It's like turning all the "classic virtues" upside down.
    How can the car be pure and enjoyable if it never works? How can it be good when the seating position is crap, the pedals are in the passenger footwell and you fear that you will roll out the door, still strapped to your seat in the next fast corner? Is there something to be said for loads of torque, as good a chassis as one can make, great seating position in supportive and safe seats etc. in relation to purity? I think there is, and this takes me back go my conviction that the questions regarding purity and soul, is predominantly personal.

    So at the end of the day it's a waste trying to argue which is better. They are all special, but which one is right for you is personal.
     
  7. italiafan

    italiafan F1 Veteran

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    Nicely done.
    Also, watch the Youtube video of Vicki from 5th gear revieweing the 458 Spider..she actually began to tear up with joy. :)
     
  8. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    I've owned all these cars. I still have a 458 and I have a Pista coming.

    I actually think the 458 was far more revolutionary than you are allowing. I see it as the time that this level of car went from "sportscar"- which I would define as you mentioned, you have to make a bigger commitment to driving it- especially with the manual, but even with the F1 - to "supercar". The 458 features a much wider range of driving experience between its modes. And the electronics bring you closer to the on track experience than with the 430. I also think the 458 ushered in a new styling theme. I think history is going to regard the 458 as a high-water mark for Ferrari. And I think the 458 redefined the segment.

    I see the 488 as trying to build on the 458s strengths- it toughens up the styling a bit. Comfort is improved as is performance. But you have to really really push on to get to that performance. It is an excellent car. I'm just not so sure its my opinion of an excellent Ferrari. I think they tried too hard- or had to learn- on the sound. I found the 488 GTB to be a bit monotone to my ears. I think the Pista is a little better, or at least maybe it's louder. But if you don't go comparing against NA Ferrari engines, I think the 488 still sounds pretty good. And the 488 has tremendous power from fairly low in the rev range through fairly high. And I wonder if the throttle response is very much off the 458's. In some circumstances it might actually be better, and at other times it might be a little worse.

    I like the 458 way, where you have to really rev it, but I know others would prefer the 488's turbo sledgehammer. I just need to hear that searing NA sound. That's a big part of the thrill for me. But if you say you like the 488 better, who could argue with that?!

    In a way, all these cars are stepping stones. But I think history will see the 488 as more of a transitionary step. More of a GT persona to the car in its general driving feel and first turbo engine since the F40. You can see where they are going with the Pista and F8.

    So I think we have to allow for the fact that different people respond to different things. We're all here because we love Ferrari- whether its turbo or NA, times change, but we still have the passion! It's all good! :)
     
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  9. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    And in the future there are going to be people that like the Hybrid and then full electric
     
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  10. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Great post, as always. Just of little value with this audience unfortunately, or really who cares. We will still enjoy our playdates!



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  11. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Looks to me like the 488 was made in part to compete with Mclaren. It was not made to compete with the 458.

    Mclaren is less expensive and carbon fiber. Both are turbos. That’s pretty tough competition.

    Mclaren was not much of a concern when 458 was introduced. Just my two cents.
     
  12. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Thanks guys. You know Phil, it might be. But I often wondered why did McLaren begin with a turbo engine? The power? The torque? Especially at the time. They must have begun designing the MP412C over 10 years ago. Wow time files! Anyway, I think they must have done it because they knew where this was going with regulations and why have one generation of car with an NA engine- especially when your business model is selling variations of a platform.

    I don't know any of this, its just my own speculation. But when I think about the 488 being turbo, I think its more Ferrari's own reaction to the changing requirements more than reacting to McLaren. I do think the 720 got their attention though. In this context, I think that's the car the 488 gets measured against.
     
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  13. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Found it, loved it!

    [/url]

    Some prefer Spiders (and they seem to command a premium), some don’t. For me, although I chose the Italia (I had other convertibles at the time and I wanted the car with the best performance), Spiders are always special.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  14. italiafan

    italiafan F1 Veteran

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    I don't think I have ever seen a review of any car by anyone that conveys more sheer automotive passion and joy than this one.
    The 458 was and remains epic on so many levels.
    Sure there are faster cars, but so what....
     
  15. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula Junior

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    It’s easy, imagine your car. Now add twice the intensity! Interested ;)?
    That’s the 458 Spider!
     
  16. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    She is going to have that reaction , anyone would. Especially when the 430 was being trounced by VW's

    Same as James May being totally over taken in his 430.
     
  17. dustman

    dustman F1 Rookie

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    An all time great video, I watched that so many times before getting a 458. And I completely get it after one drive.

    Man, I want another.
     
  18. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    In general, I agree with that. There are indeed people of all ages, all regions of the world and regardless of preferred manufacturer, that claim his/her car is the best, only because they own it and managed to afford it. That can’t be a valid criteria, imho.

    I must say that, personally, I’ve never been like that. I’ve owned great cars that gave me a lot of pleasure driving, and also cars that I’ve considered a complete waste of my time and money, a true disappointment. And I had no problem laughing with my friends about it when they rubbed it in my face, namely with the Mondial I used to own.

    I think it’s great to discover and enjoy a car with an open mind, no preconceived ideas, and give any car an honest chance of winning you over... or not. If it does, it’s magic. If it doesn’t, call it experience. Like the great Michael Jordan once said: “I never lose. I either win or I learn”.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  19. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Girl has orgasm driving 458 Spider. :)
     
  20. dustman

    dustman F1 Rookie

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    Just watched again....and trying to remember why I sold my spider...!?!?
     
  21. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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  22. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Men can have them too:

    [/url]

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  23. Graz

    Graz Formula 3
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    Here's another great video in case someone missed it ;)

     
  24. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    And yet another:

    [/url]

    And to keep things balanced, here’s Top Gear’s test of the 488 GTB:

    [/url]

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  25. italiafan

    italiafan F1 Veteran

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    We all harbor those regrets...
    Plenty for sale...go buy another!
     

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