458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Isn't this end of the market really more about the experience than the product? Didn't Buitoni write his dissertation on selling dreams, not selling cars?

If so, I just don't see how McLaren can provide the experience they are trying to sell with no infrastructure to do so.

Bringing out the MP4-12C out as the first car will be considered a mistake in time, this is the entry level car, they need to launch the halo car (F1 replacement) to bring credibility to the brand.

This was one thing that Lexus did right on their launch, everyone remembers the LS400, everyone forgot the ES250.

 

Again, you prove my point about why we should applaud McLaren for doing this. The NSX was up against the 348. It was clear that Ferrari was not up to it's potential. In 1998, it did a clean sheet 360 that put them on top again. You have to wonder if the NSX never came around, would Ferrari really have spent the money to create cars as great as the 355, 360, F430, and now the 458? I doubt it.

Competion improves the breed. But, just because they have a "better" performing car doesn't mean that the new guy will wipe out the other.

And, I would argue today WHICH car really has the better following --the NSX or the 348. Despite not being as good, the 348 still wins out as being more desirable.

 

Parity in the US if ever accomplished is at least a 2 decade's away.
A lot sooner if they sign a US born F1 Driver that has the talent.
Parity in the UK and Germany it's just a few years away.

 

McLaren's goal is to eventually sell up to 4,000 cars worldwide per year - perhaps as early as mid-decade - but not just of the 12C. The first year of 12C production is set for ~1,000 cars.

Next year they will unveil another model - supposedly their new hypercar F1-replacement - and then the intention is to follow that up with one model every year after for something like 5 years. A new model may consist of a convertible version of an existing car. There's also lots of talk of an entry level car in the ~$100,000 range - something Ferrari has thus far avoided but which I think could do very well if properly executed. That would be the car that they'd build in highest volume.

Quoting Ron from AutoWeek:

Through six U.S. dealerships, McLaren hopes to sell 300 to 400 cars, starting in June 2011. “Our sales goals are modest,” Dennis said. “We don't need to be big. We want low-volume, premium products with the best customer experience in the business.”

...and another:

At this point their ambitions certainly seem obtainable and I wouldn't advise anyone bet against them.

>8^)
ER

 

End of the Day I don't think Ferrari has anything to fear.
Plus as you said competition improves the breed
The fact the MP4 is available as an option to buyers
is going to greatly reduce the Ferrari dealers premium
gauging which again is good thing for us folks

 

Ferrari is kind of limited in this regarding going down market in that it is part of the Fiat empire. Maserati is positioned in that price segment and the guys in Turino know that if they position Ferrari too far down market, they'll kill Maserati.

McLaren still needs to be careful coming too far down market as well. The C class may be the volume leader of Mercedes, but the luxury car days of that company are long gone. Going down market in search of volume helped kill that.

 

Since McLaren don't own any other brand they can go as vertical as they deem good for them

 

True, they don't have that limitation. But here is another question, where are they going to get a motor for a $100k sports car? They are likely going to be competing with the high end of most of the big name OEMs as a direct competitor at this price point. Mercedes doesn't so much care about the Zonda since they're not building many, but if you start talking about volumes, it's not a slam dunk.

 

I think it's so funny that many of you-- who I assume have NEVER bought a new super car at MSRP or above-- think it's the same as choosing between buying Campbells or Progresso soup at the market.

When you make a choice as to what super car to buy, you don't do it without really wanting it. WHY you really want it has little to do about Nurburgring numbers and more about how it makes you feel.

Ferrari will be effected in about in the same way that the introduction of Maybach has hurt RR sales, at least in the US. Ron's estimate of 400 cars in the US sales for the first year is probably just about right. Where he's wrong is his estimate for the following years.

This is NOT the rebirth of the F1. It's a mass produced car like any other. I'm sure its going to be a really fine machine but so is the Maybach and they still sell RR's.

 

These are totally discretionary purchases, you go with your heart, not your head.

I will admit that I paid a premium on a certain E36 M3, heart speaking, not head.

 

Ricardo, the same place they are getting their V8. A wee V6 with twin turbos that can't have too much horsepower or it'll compete against the V8.

$100k McLaren is going to be a tough sell against 911's.

Beyond that, I can see 300-400 cars a year internationally, that many from year two on in the US alone is a tall order.

Can't compete directly with Ferrari since Ferrari have built-in clientele except for California buyers. Can only siphon off those not on a list/not willing to wait, et cetera.

It'll be a fantastic car...perhaps the best in its class. 4k a year though? Year over year? Tall order indeed.

 

Given the underlying structure, the 458 scuderia will have trouble matching McL: adding 20-30 hps and lopping off 200 lbs, will still leave the new scuderia less powerful and heavier than McL. A car will all the creature comforts. The aluminum-carbon race will be hard for Ferrari to win.

 

All brands, however established, are susceptible to attack. To state otherwise simply suggests an overly myopic view.

In twenty years, most of us will be old an irrelevant to a new generation that has money and that did not grow up with posters of Ferraris on their bedroom walls. Instead, their iPhone and iPad background images are BMW M3s and Audi R8s. They are more concerned with what Tony Stark drives than whether Enzo built his own motors way back in the day. I seriously doubt that, upon achieving success, they will suddenly care about a brand, "if" it has been neglected.

Our generation has such an undying allegiance to Ferrari that we are willing to give up a few tenths and MPH to Porsche and Lambo. Rumor is that the Gallardo replacement may have a a carbon chassis. Will the next generation of affluent customers still be so brainwashed by the Ferrari "je ne sais quoi" that they will choose the Fcar even if it has the most outdated tech and finishes 4th out of 4 in a head to head comparo? Not unless the brand still has that intangible bit that is important to those buyers. Right now, I'm not seeing it in the younger generation.

One sure way to mitigate that risk to the brand is to continue producing the best performing cars, or at least, not let the gap get too wide. We'll see how the 12C actually performs when it is finally released, but if I read between the lines, McLaren has been sandbagging thus far and they have admitted that they are still developing the car. My prediction is that the performance gap between the 12C and the 458 is going to significantly larger than any gap we've so far seen between the rest of the cars in this segment. And for me, as a prospective customer, yes that would matter.

 

458 too slow for you, then?

 

Happend to the NSX...

 

Was 430 too slow for you?

 

Yes, but as a 12C owner, won't you get tired of answering the same question, every where you go, time and time again, "What's that?"

Instead of hearing comments like, "Wow, it's a Ferrari!"

That is unless you enjoy monotonous questions like,

Who makes it?

What's a 12C?

What's that mean?

Who is Mclaren, never heard of them?

Is it a kit car?

Why does the engine say Mercedes?

And drumroll please....................Is that the new Ferrari?

 

No.

 

ROFLMAO!

Nailed it!

 

LOL! I'll admit, that's funny...

but, nah, I love cars and any opportunity to talk about them with strangers. Educating others on a whole new car, and automotive company, only adds to the excitement of being part of something new.

 

Now this is brand snobbery on an entirely new level...

But I agree with bdelp, you won't buy it unless it makes your heart beat faster... In the end that's all that matters when picking a supercar...

 

Merc is developing a turbo V6 plus hybrid for forthcoming mid engined car.
I'm sure they would be glad to share

 

Played with it at Pebble Beach. The engineering presentation was done on a rolling chassis and he mentioned that Ricardo developed the engine directly with McLaren...no Merc involvement. It is their engine but being built by Ricardo. Graziano helped them develop and build the transmission. I'm just still trying to figure out how easy it's going to be to shift with a rocker arm for the shifter. It felt weird to me. Maybe with time though...

I will say that the MP4-12C was a challenge to get in and out of. I'm tall, but thin and even so the sill is HUGE!!!! I was in the Mac F1 the day prior (the one from the Gooding and Company auction) and that car was almost *easier* to get into and out of. I had a skirt on both days and had no issues of dangerous embarrassment getting into or out of the F1...I know, hard to believe, but true!...different story on the new car.

It also felt tight inside. It's a small car and the 458 feels considerably larger inside. The finished car they had on hand also had an interesting add-on...a video kit with built in telemetry. Take it to any track or your favourite back road and you can video record (2 cameras in the front bumper, one in the rear, and one in the cockpit) and satellite track your laps times. Interesting thought from an OEM.

I still did really like the car though. It is very well constructed and felt very tight in every way, shape and form. I say instead of either/or, why not BOTH!

Here's a few pics of me in all three cars. New Mac, old Mac and the venerable 458 for comparison.
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