458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Apples and oranges.
458 is a regular production car (as the 430 was) and GT2 RS is a very limited (less then half of Scuderia production),Factory "tuner special" that still looks like any other ordinary 911.
Putting more power in that car by the Factory is no more original then what countless aftermarket tuners are already doing for the last 30 or 40 years ,some with inferior,some with superior (RUF) results...

 

I don't know about the 911 competitor. There is no mention of building a plant that could build 20k cars in this article. Plus building a 911 competitor would dilute the brand.

http://www.carpictures.com/McLaren/-Plans-New-Plant-to-Build-Cars-by-2011-2009-09ELC301723869

 

Based on conversations I've had and everything I've read so far I do believe it is McLaren's intention to eventually build two more primary models, slotted both above and below the MP4-12C in terms of performance/price. We'll see the higher end car first - a mid-2011 unveiling if they keep it on target, then the lower end car will follow later on. They have expressed no aspirations of building more than ~4,500 total cars per year once they have filled out their model lineup. Here's some more details on that:

Also in deference to some of the comments made here by others, I found this very interesting.

>8^)
ER
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3-4% of the global market doesn't sound like an overly ambitious goal. It really sounds like McLaren has their head on straight, and not up their ass like some of their peers.

I agree with anyone who's saying competition is good thing for this segment in the market. Hopefully McLaren's cars and dealer system will pull another "NSX".

Chris Pfaff and the Pfaff Group are a great bunch and I'm happy to see them being McLarens rep for Canada... they're in good hands.

 

You don't have to build 20k units to be a 911 competitor.
As long as you have similar dynamics and are priced within 20%
Your good to go and it will Not dilute the brand.

 

No, you do. The reason is that you need to get the parts price down and pay for the tooling by volume. Set up, R & D, and tooling and marketing expenses are the biggest deterent to creating new models. If you have a low volume car, then you need a higher profit margin to pay it all back. Higher margins mean higher prices or a poorer price/value level. Also, to get the best price from your suppliers, you need to get the numbers up.

The more volume, the lower the price. To compete with the 911 in price but still keep its value for money and quality of materials, you need numbers far greater than what Ferrari produces now.

As to deluting the brand, of course it would. Can you imagine if Rolls Royce made a 7 series car at a 7 series price? It certainly would delute the exclusivity of the brand. In fact, Bentley is going through similar issues now. It's no longer "special" to own a Bentley.

 

It will dilute the brand because Mac would be going down market. Many will see that as a negative. Also, Porsche has been using the same chassis for the past 40 years and the cost of improving it are way less than building a new 911 chassis from scratch, but McLaren will have to build a 911 competitor chassis from scratch and that may not be economically feasible, unless they use the MP4 chassis built with cheaper materials for their 911, if that is at all possible.

 

considering that the turbo S IS an amazingly fast machine, and that mclaren have not yet launched their car, IMHO they should keep the competition in mind ...

 

I think Mac took a page out of Porsche's playbook. They are using turbos for the MP4.

 

Think I'd still rather have an Abarth 500.

Besides, who is going to partner with McLaren to let them meet the CAEF fuel economy fleet average requirements for the US? Ferrari now has the chance to blend the fleet with Fiats built by the old Chrysler, Ron Dennis doesn't have this option.

 

Misunderstood. Thought you were comparing the brands as a whole to FIAT.

_J

 

If they make enough profit they could just pay the fines.

 

McLaren seems to have a case here that could help offset or eliminate those penalties:

>8^)
ER

 

Legislation is not finalized. Even LEVIII targets are not completely agreed on and those cars will be here in just a few years.

The other big unknown is also are we actually going to be seeing this market extending? If unemployment stays at 10% and the boomers don't fully recover their retirement positions, we're going to see the overall pool of qualified buyers start to shrink. 18-25 year olds may love these cars, but very few of them can actually write the check for one. I'm a big fan of all of these cars, but I even see my own priorties shifting for the next 20 or so years.

 

from auto car:
McLaren is targeting Porsche owners with its new MP4-12C supercar, according to the head of the firm’s North American division.

Most of the potential customers of the McLaren MP4-12C are currently Porsche owners, rather than Ferrari owners, claims Anthony Joseph.

He believes that while Maranello relies to a certain extent on image and visual flair, McLaren and Porsche subscribe to a more focused school of thinking based around “substance over style”.

Joseph also claims that 2700 parties had declared an interest in the MP4-12C before its most recent public appearance at Pebble Beach in August.

And although money has yet to changes hands, McLaren would only require just over a third of those interested to complete MP4-12C orders in order to achieve its planned sales of target of 1000 units in the first year of production.

Joseph added that McLaren is aiming to introduce one new model or variant of an existing model per year between now and 2015, which it says will take it to its annual production target of 4500 units.

The MP4-12C will go on sale in the early part of 2011, with a price tag of around £150k.

 

Outside of the 458's penchant for BBQ, it is about perfect.

Honestly, the first new Ferrari in a while that made my 'fizzy root' tingle, older Ferraris will always make me swoon. 275GTB? yes please, Daytona? Ill let you shoot me if I can drive it, 599? Not so much, 430? It looks like a Ferrari, not special, just looks like a Ferrari.

The 458? Sex on wheels, and I have not said that about a Ferrari in a while, just ask Mike.

Comparing against the McLaren? Ferrari, hands down.

McLaren says the MP4-12 is an "every mans" super car, maybe, but I still think McLaren is trying too hard to reach the consumer.
The F1 was amazing because it was so bonkers, and had the speed (and price tag) to back it up. The new one, I fear will be watered down enough as to dash some hopes and dreams.

Aside from that, I am simply bored (maybe thats the wrong word) with McLaren, (I was bored with Ferrari, until the 458 showed up). The reason I am bored (not bored, apathetic, thats the word), is not just because the F1 has grown long in the tooth, but because McLaren seems to be trying too hard to make the MP4 a practical car. They seem to have grown up and realized that folks want to super car with a boot.

To me it signals the end to the absurdity of the Hyper Car.
McLaren used to be one of the plank owners of the Hyper Car classification, now they simply make super cars.

Next thing you know, Pagani will be making a station wagon.




As far as McLaren targeting Porsche, I am a Porsche fan (and some one you started hating me right there), I build aircooled flat fours, and tweak flat sixes, I love the sound of a Porsche 917 over the noise from a 430 Scud, and I like having my engine in the back.

Speaking as a Porsche guy, McLaren has their work cut out for them.
If 911 owners really wanted to drive a mid engine car, they would have traded for Caymans, some of us like the engine in the rear, it is kind of the point to the car.

Unless they simply drive a Porsche due to the badge. (but I understand there are a lot of Ferrari owners like that too)

 

I sort of disagree here.....I bought a 997 turbo and would prefer a mid-engined car........but a stock Cayman S is not in its league.

 

If you dont mind my asking, what is your main complaint with the rear engine?
I am actually asking, not trying to start a flame war.

I have a different outlook on rear engine cars, but, then again, I learned to drive in a rear engine car, and have a larger spot in my heart set aside for the like.

 

All things considered, I can't in good heart compare the MP4 to a Pagani station wagon. The car is marketed towards different buyers than the F1.

This car puts the name back into the market place to a higher amount of buyers. Where many people would buy a real F1 successor, the MP4 begins the company again with a slower roll back into production, peeking interest at what they will do next.

The F1 was the best demonstration of form and function until the Veyron. Absurd super cars are still being produced, but again, that's not what McLaren are aiming for. Larger profits can be made from the MP4 than a 300 car production run of an automobile which will take considerable funds to R&D as well as manufacture. Case in point, Bugattis loses with the Veyron.

_J

 

I'm wondering if Mr. Joseph may have overstepped his creative license with the Porsche comment. This was the first mention of such a message since the genesis of McLaren Automotive and I have certainly not heard, or read about, anything from Ron Dennis in a similar vein. The thrust from Dennis has always been that McLaren needs to emulate Ferrari's success in road cars to ensure long term survivability as an F1 constructor.

Then again, perhaps they feel that Porsche's business model, with respect to volumes, is the better way to go. Just strange that it seems inconsistent with messaging up to this point.

On a local note, the Pfaff group that has been awarded the franchise here in Canada is a very successful Porsche dealer, among other brands. When I discussed with them, it appears they feel the McLaren brand is a logical "step up" for their existing Porsche customers. I interpreted this as a way for them to retain clients that they may have lost to Ferrari, Lambo, etc.

 

I know plenty of Porsche Turbo / GT3 / GT2 owners that have the means to buy a Ferrari (or a Lambo) but don't have the patience to play the dealer games, put up with the service costs and also appreciate the relative anonymity afforded by the familiar Porsche shape. I know several of them with letters of interest into Pfaff and Chris Pfaff himself has stated much of the interest in the MP4-12C is from their existing Porsche customers.

I don't necessarily see the McLaren being a way for them to retain customers from switching to F/L, but rather provide a further "step up" to those that have currently reached the peak of where their interests and priorities lay with what the Porsche line up offers.

 

He believes that while Maranello relies to a certain extent on image and visual flair, McLaren and Porsche subscribe to a more focused school of thinking based around “substance over style”.


Now THAT'S funny! Yeah...good thing there was no "substance" to the 288 GTO, or the F40, or the Enzo, or the Scud, or the 458... Ferrari needs to quit building these visually compelling but watered down cars...

 

I agree that the statement, although his intention is obvious, does not actually make much sense upon further digestion. I have watched footage of Mr. Joseph and saw him speak at the launch and have to admit that his messaging is not nearly as polished as Sheriff or Dennis. He would be better off focusing on the "purity of focus" and "unwillingness to compromise" mantras that Sheriff is more adept at extolling. These are more easily backed up by the technical features (carbon monocell) and design philosophy (overall lightness) of the product.

That being said, there has been a ton of internet coverage based off of what would appear to be a single interview with Joseph. Would like to read the interview in its entirety to see if the context changes things.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

http://www.citylifetv.ca/mclaren_toronto_chris_pfaff.html

Around 2 min mark, interview with Chris Pfaff discusses who interested parties are, thus far.