458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

From McLaren:

"The McLaren Automotive development team recently put 12C Validation Prototypes through their paces at an intensive extreme weather testing programme undertaken in Arizona, USA. With temperatures peaking at 46 degrees Celsius/115 degrees Fahrenheit three cars ran day and night over a three week period, travelling through the Grand Canyon as they drove between Lake Havasu City and Flagstaff."
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Great pictures....but I still think the car look bland and very 80's Japanese

 

I read the CAR mag article. It is a great piece (actually a collection of articles, including a full, and very favorable, review of the 458). Still no journo impressions of driving the Mac, but test driver Chris Goodwin (admittedly biased) had this to say:

And what did he think about the 458 when he finally got behind the wheel? 'It's a good car, but it's better in areas we didn't expect it to be better and not as strong where we thought it would be. It was particularly good when it came to wind noise, for example. But where's the technology?"
So which is faster? An impishly mischievous grin crosses Goodwin's face. 'I've driven both and all I'll say is our car is quick, really quick,' he teases, almost laughing, before intimating that the McLaren will comfortably outpace the 458 on any road or track he's encountered.

 

The McLaren is 1.7, yes one point seven seconds faster around the Top Gear test track then the 458.

McLaren took their 458 to Dunsfold with an MP4, their times were 0.2 seconds faster in the 458 then 'The Stig' time, and the MP4-12C was 1.7 secs faster than that!

Still prefer the 458 though, and still waiting for my tour of McLaren tec center

 

Do you have a source for those figures?

 

Unofficial, but correct.

 

As much as I would love to believe those numbers (since I think the 12C is fantastic), they are staggering performance figures based on the the current TG test track power board rankings. So, if you cannot provide a legitimate source or at least tell us where you heard them, then I can only assume they are based in rumor.

 

Indeed. The numbers are correct, what is not clear is what state of production-ness the vehicle was in. It was, as all are at the moment, a prototype, so how this compares with the final model I dont know.

 

tuning in here late, but i think the MP4-12c looks like a cross between the F1 and a Gallardo. although i loved the look of the F1, i dont like the look of the MP4-12c. maybe the next go-round will be more eye appealing.

 

+1 Although the McLaren F1 IMHO is the greatest car made, the MP4 12C while a fine piece of KIT does not have the appealing looks. In some colors definitely better than others, but too many cut lines and plastic pieces.

 

I find this hard to believe since this would make the MP4-12C the 4th fastest car on their power lap board edging out the Koenigsegg CCX (with the Top Gear wing) and faster than the 1st gen Veyron.

If this is true, all McLaren has to do is to tweak the styling to be a little more aggressive before they go into production and they will be serving a gigantic ass-kicking to Ferrari. I get the impression a lot of potential sales are being held back because it doesn't look crazy enough. If it looked as aggressive as some of the photoshops that have been posted here it would seal the deal for me.

 

With +600 hp and 200 Kg less than the Ferrari, I´d bet that those lap times are true. To be honest, I expected the McLaren would be faster.

Although I really like the 458, and it sounds and looks freakin´ good, Ferrari probably needed that kick in the ass, and the one that Lamborghini is preparing also. They promised lighter cars and the 458 is even a bit heavier than the F430.

 

Actually, the post implies that the lap time is 1:17.2, since they also achieved a delta of -0.2 seconds in the 458. Placing the 12C in 3rd position on the board, in between the Gumpert and the Ascari. Yeah, pretty scary, if there is any truth to it.

It seems that the TG track is quite twisty, rewarding a lighter, nimbler car. But that would still be an astounding result.

Regarding the styling, not sure if your hopes will materialize. I have not heard anything to indicate that the design is not completely frozen. Also, they have been adamant that the shape was dictated by a required aerodynamic performance index, so I doubt they would alter things at this stage. In any case, after examining the chassis and vehicle in person, it is clear to me that the body really is simply a skin draped over the structure, with very little added. "Taut" takes on a new definition, with this car. On the very encouraging side, I am assuming that the aerodynamic performance will be phenomenal, for those that will take advantage of it. In fact, if they have managed the balance of drag and downforce to perfection (as I suspect they have) then those TG track lap times may not be so far-fetched.

 

Every serious buyer who is on the fence on this car is complaining about the styling and/or waiting to see what resale values are going to be. I'll bet McLaren could easily double the level of interest in this car if they dealt with the styling issue and therefore this increased interest would take care of the resale debate.

McLaren are you listening? Please tweak the styling! It's just a body shell, you can do it!!

 

To be honest, I like the look of it just the way it is.

If I had the money (to be perfectly clear: I've barely got a pair of pennies to rub together) and was looking for a current-production V8 supercar, based on styling alone, I'd actually be more likely to buy this McLaren than the 458.

As to the serious buyers on here, a Ferrari-enthusiast site, I think there's always going to be some resistance - particularly on issues of style.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Well, I am a ferrari enthusiast, and even though I really like 458 i am not very excited about it, since it ultimately does not bring anything new to the table. It's a great refinement of the same concept. McLaren on the other hand moves things ahead quite a bit and does not look half bad. To me Ferrari is simply falling behind. Even Lambo, at least conceptually, is moving ahead. In 3 years Italia will feel ancient.

 

I saw both in person last weekend at the same event. The 458 looks absolutely fabulous in person. The McLaren does look good, but too generic for me. The doors are cool, but other than that it's too... plain. 458 Italia for me

 

That's just it, they can't and won't change the styling b/c the body is a functional result of the tightest packaging, which is critical to the performance specification of the car. To miss this point is to misunderstand the essence of the design philosophy (and by that I mean engineering) for the product.

Ferrari could sooner change the style of the 458 before Mac would touch the 12C, because for Ferrari the style element holds relatively more sway over ultimate performance. And in my opinion, maybe Ferrari should, in order to do something about that caricature French painter moustache in the front and the rear end that looks like it is constipated and trying to pinch a loaf. IMO of course.

 

No doubt that is their focus. But it is also a business and if you are leaving money on the table because of an almost universally common criticism of the car then there needs to be a compromise. Most buyers know they won't be tapping the full potential of the McLaren or the 458 to be able to tell the difference between the two. These things tend to be emotional purchases. The styling and soundtrack play a huge part. IMO the 458 wins on both fronts here.

The McLaren, no doubt, is going to make it embarassing for Ferrari to offer the 458 as a performance car. However, people will still buy the 458 in larger numbers because it offers the greater emotional experience and it will be more liquid because of that. Squeezing out 2 tenths of a second on the track with the perfect aerodynamic balance isn't something I would even consider. Let's take those 2 tenths off the table and give it some sexier styling. Giving that up would still result in a huge performance gap vs the 458.

If McLaren won't do it then this is an huge open door for the tuners.

 

Yes, these things are emotional purchases (aren't almost all consumer automobiles, on some level?). But, emotions are triggered differently in different buyers. A Porsche 911 Turbo probably appeals to different emotions than a Lambo or an Aston, yet the market supports them all. Perhaps McLaren is not catering to your specific buying emotions as pointedly as Ferrari does, but I'd wager that they have contemplated that possibility, ad nauseum, and still decided on the approach that they are taking. As they have said, they are aiming to compete in the same sector as Ferrari, Lambo, Aston, Porsche, etc., but they are not aiming to simply copy any single one of them.

They're refusal to compromise performance for styling is a marketing message in itself, one that as far as I can tell is being rather well received in circles that are not already heavily biased towards Ferrari. Yes, the 12C's shrink-wrapped body is the most aerodynamic form of packaging, but don't forget that we are also talking about a car that is expected to weigh *200 KG* less than a 458. That's massive. The 12C's side intakes look the way they do b/c that much air is required to cool the turbocharged motor, which at 3.8L is itself a design study in power vs. weight. As you know, the examples go on and on. But they are not going to stretch out the car's profile with longer front overhang, for example, or tack on exposed tail lights, thereby adding weight and fudging the aero in a quest for mimicking the 458's shape. I'm positive that McLaren's engineers would find that sacrifice preposterous.

It's not simply about how many tenths or seconds quicker the 12C is vs. the 458. It's about the philosophy and methodology exacted in the process of reaching that goal. If that doesn't trigger an emotion within you, then yes maybe they miss a check-mark for you specifically. But don't assume that sentiment carries over to all the buyers in the segment. For many, that is precisely why they are seriously interested in the McLaren.

 

I never said that I wanted McLaren to copy the 458. No question the McLaren's performance will be stunning.

However, it is an almost universal criticism that the car lacks the visual wow factor and the styling is bland. That is costing them a lot of sales now.

For example, I know of 6 people in my circle that would buy this car right now if the styling wasn't so average. Those 6 people represent 4x 458 sales for Ferrari. Right now, those 6 people think the technology is cool but they won't buy it or even get on the list. I am the only one that is serious and on the list yet I'm not 100% convinced either.

Perhaps they are holding back on the styling (like Ferrari is for the 458) for the future lightweight track-focussed variant. Only at that time will we see what the car should have looked like from the beginning.

 

I really wonder how long this thread will run.

That's not being negative. It's just interesting that so many feel so passionate about either car.

I'm shocked that this has gone on this far without a single test of the McLaren to date. We still don't know what it will do or it's strengths or weaknesses.

This may be one of the longest threads of all time-- lasting years. There may never be a true definative answer to satisfy everyone.

 

I'd be very surprised if one ever emerged. Cars are very personal and people (even ones with similar interests) are very different.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

My point is that McLaren will gladly alienate your six colleagues in order to gain a multiple of that in customers for whom the message strikes home.

Styling is so subjective and, moreover, relative. By that I mean that the 12C is understated compared to a 458, but it is definitely more avante garde than a Porsche 911. The Pfaff event in Toronto had a very high concentration of existing Porsche customers and those that I traded comments with that night universally loved the look of the 12C. And this wasn't a Ferrari of Ontario event where a customer might have to watch his mouth (or even worse buy a California that they don't even want) for fear of losing a coveted spot on "the list".

Maybe Anthony Joseph's comments about also competing with Porsche were more aligned than I first thought. I know Ferrari owners can have a tendency to believe that Porsche owners can't afford a Ferrari or a Lambo or they would have bought one. Truth is, there are probably more multi-millionaire Porsche owners out there than there are total Ferrari and Lambo owners put together. They don't want a Ferrari or a Lambo and they don't want an Aston or Bentley, either. Will they gravitate to McLaren? Who knows, time will tell. But if they do, the 12C would easily make its numbers without needing to sway a single would-be 458 buyer.

 

I think you're reading way too much into why the styling is the way it is.

There are many different ways to style a car without compromising its aero - look at the Ford GT (they basically used a 60s design), or the McLaren F1 with the up-swept air vents in the doors. These features are "styled" in order to make the car more appealing.

Ultimately, the design decision comes down to projecting the desired "look". Unfortunately, for the MP4, they chose do look back at their heritage and all they could find was the F1, so they did a 90s-retro look. Even McLaren's design director admitted it was too late to change the design when he came in. I doubt those tacky taillights do much to improve performance.

The only thing this car is shrink-wrapped around is its passengers. This is a case of tunnel vision where the need to make the car small to get it lighter will bite them when some big guys with big cash try to sit in the car. There have already been a couple of comments on this thread about how hard it is to get into the car and a picture I posted of a test mule shows just how tight the cockpit is:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139846279&postcount=262