458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

Top Gear is supposed to test the car in today's show.

 

Ok, official stats are out:
Curb weight: 3161 ( can be made lighter with options: 3086), so it will be 300-500 lbs lighter than Italia depending on options.

0-62 : 3.3 (3.1)
0-124: 9.1 (8.9)
62-0: 100 ft.

Quarter mile: 10.9 at 134 mph.

 

OK this thread has become a bit predictable, lets throw this thought out there...what pedigree does McLaren actually have when it comes to road cars?

Sure the F1 was epic but that was largely the vision of one many, the SLR...well that was less than stellar and enjoyed luke warm reviews at best....that makes it 50/50 in my books, sure the MP may be very fast and very accomplished but in my opinion its frankly laughable to compare the pedigree of Ferrari and McLaren road cars.

Numbers dont make a car, numbers are used for bar arguments, slap down a Ferrari key ring on the bar and the average guy will go wow, slap down a McLaren keyring and I bet the average person couldnt care less. I think the true measure of how great a car is, is by how its accupants feel while in it, and walking up to it and I just really, really hope I am wrong but if the MP has the cold, calculating Ron Dennis, passionless persona its going to be a huge pity.

In case you hadnt guessed this post is designed to stimulate some interesting debate

What also irritated many people who went to the preview down here a few months ago was that every phrase was a dig at Ferrari, big comming from a company with as mentioned almost zero pedigree when it comes to road cars.

Fear not Fchat members though, Ferrari will be back and in a way I think they are laughing, takea 360 put slats on the side, change the front bumper, fit gullwing doors and you have 90% looks wise a new McLaren...hardly cutting edge styling!

 

Considering the much lower weight I expected more performance wise, the 458 does 0-60 in 3.4 vs 3.3 for the McLaren so its hardly massively faster...

 

That's traction. There is so much you can do without AWD. The difference to 124 IS massive.

 

Granted but lets also looks at something else, turbo vs NA, it could be argued anyone can go and make big power with turbos, its much more difficult to make big power with NA. Again the Mac does have 40 bhp more than a 458 and due to turbos more torque so in a direct comparison these cars may occupy the same market based on price but as for the rest its like comparting apples and oranges.

As mentioned its personal preference at the end of the day. In summary we really are living in the golden age of supercars at the moment!

 

Oh, I agree: N/A is much better as an experience. Engine technology wise, Ferrari wins, but it loses big on chassis: we are talking easily 400 lbs weight difference. This is the massive difference.

 

Doubt it, it looks more like they'll just have it in the studio but not actually drive it.

 

Last time I checked, Ferrari also charges big premiums for anything but Rossa Corsa and a couple other colors. Many others are an up charge. I don't think you know what you're talking about as McLaren still hasn't announced the option pricing yet, and won't until this Spring. The only figure they've announced is the Base MSRP for Europe, the UK and US($227k).

IMO the McLaren is the better value financially and performance wise. Time will tell and I could be wrong. Both cars are superb so it really comes down to a matter of personal preference. That's why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors...

 

Another fun stat: they are claiming the mileage of 20 mpg ( European combined cycle). I don't think I ever get out of single digits in my scud, so that would be something to behold .

 

Fuel economy.....as you say what they claim and what the average owner gets are two very different things!

 

This is fine as far as it goes, but here's the problem: if all the crazy rumors about Mc prove to be true, it will mean that no Ferrari road car ever made will come close in performance to an entry level McLaren. Neither 458, nor 599 GTO, simply nothing. What is Ferrari then? A maker of beautiful cruising cars? That's Maserati's brief. What is Ferrari, then if their GTO(mologato) will not know which way the entry-level McLaren went on a race-track? What about all this F1-technology transfer Ferrari tries to make so much hay out of?

 

Ask yourself how many people have the ability to truly exploit these cars on the track and the thats where the argument falls flat, most people dont track their cars at 10/10 of their capability, all these cars are special. For me I climb into the 599 GTO, hear that V12 and the hair rises on the back of my neck, I walk up to the 458 and its something beautiful to behold, 8500rpm in GTO, the brutal acceleration but none of these feelings are tangible, with Ferrari you can feel the history, feel the breading and dare I say it feel the passion. Its just not the same with Porsche, sure they are great cars but there is no flair, no emotion and I believe the Mac will be the same, supremely competent but cold.

Its all how you define performance and more so how you define driving pleasure, for me 0-60 means pretty much nothing, but the drive is what matter, the sarroundings in which one works, the sound of the engine, the grip and that feeling joy that comes from driving. Climb in a 430 Scud and its an occaision, the low slung seat, the stripped out cabin, its not perfect, there are flaws, you either see these flaws as irritating or character.

To be perfectly honest I wouldnt even consider a Mac, it doesnt appeal to me, the McLaren ethos doesnt appeal to me, I dont care for Ron Dennis too much, when I look at Ferrari I see a story of a man who sat on a park bench, never gave up and created some of the best cars and a company that today is unquestionably the most evocative car company in the world.

Neither the 458 of GTO can be described as cruisers and with all due respect here how much performance of either can actually be used on the road...down here in Africa we are lucky, law enforcement turns a mostly blind eye and its possible to truly unleash these cars but thats far from the case in many places in the world.

My point being performace in my opinion needs to be accompanied by an experience and I am not sure the McLaren can deliver an as special experience as a Ferrari can.

All of the above is my preference and personal opinion.

 

Yes, the feel is very important, but there has to be a purpose. When I get into my scud, and car screams and bites and does all the crazy stuff, it feels so alive and yet so full of purpose. All this drama is there for a reason. If all the drama is there for show, you don't have Ferrari anymore: you have a Lamborghini.

 

458 test by automobilemag (http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1008_ferrari_458_italia_test/performance.html)

"The Motor Industry Research Association (MIRA) facility near Birmingham offered a rough cornering pad, a one-mile-long straightaway, and a few moments of dry pavement between wind and rain squalls. We used the opportunity to utmost advantage to record these chart-topping performance figures:

ACCELERATION
0-60mph 3.0sec
0-100mph 6.4
0-120mph 8.9
0-140mph 12.2
0-160mph 17.0
0-180mph 23.3
1/4-mile 10.9sec @ 134 mph"

I don't know, but 458 looks to be holding its own, yes?

 

Jeez...
You just had to say it....
Now we'll have pissed off Lambo fans all over this thread....

 

Also from automobilemag (http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1103_ferrari_458_italia/specs.html)

WEIGHT: 3274 lb
FUEL MILEAGE: 13/18 mpg (est.)

And from Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1355999/Jenson-Button-drives-new-British-supercar-McLaren-MP4-12C.html

"the 12C gets a carbon-fibre chassis, making it about 50kg lighter than the aluminium Ferrari"

So mileage and weight deltas are not "huge". As I noted before, the weight delta is not huge because the Mac still uses aluminum for a very large part of its structure, in addition to the requisite and heavy fittings that link the composite floor to the aluminum structure fore and aft. Part of their advantage comes from having sacrificed the cabin size.

 

Lambo, though, look to have done a better job with their composite "tub", using a fully enclosed cabin section and also some core (though Styrofoam, not honeycomb) in areas of the LP700.

The resulting torsional stiffness still only matches that of the open F50 from 16 years ago!

Plus Lambo have out-F1ed all the F1 car manufacturers with the lighter (than dual clutch), though still quick-shifting, Graziano-sourced single clutch ISR gearbox - just like the big boys in F1 use!

Plus, unlike Mac, they build the engine and chassis in-house.
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the engine is Mac's design and will be built in the Shoreham-by-Sea factory.

 

I think you'll find Ricardo have a considerable involvement in both the design and manufacture of the engine

 

Not really, those results are one-offs: nobody else is close to those numbers, while Mc's numbers are official ones, which tend to be conservative. Not to mention,the above numbers are US-style, so they include 1-foot roll -out. If we can trust the offical Mc numbers, the US 0-100 will be easily into 5's and 0-124 into 8's.

 

Nobody has seen an Italia with weight this low. Interestingly enough, ferrari does not even quote curb weight anywhere, only dry weight. Independently tested cars are way above 3200 lbs. With McLaren, nobody knows for sure, but they have been playing this angle big time for a while, so they have more to lose if caught lying/obfuscating (like Ferrari does).