5 point harness unsafe in street cars?

Is having a roll cage in your car street legal? - Yahoo Answers

I haven't found the federal reference cite and there are a lot of google entries on this topic.

Have fun ...

 

We have had a case (Pacific NW) where a 348 Challenge was hit on the highway, and it's owner (driver) killed.

Can't say the roll bars killed him, but that's what hit his head....DOA.
It was a terrible impact so who can say..

 

Dispelling The Rollover Safety Myth - Modified Magazine

 

5-6pt belts never sues without HANS. 3pt is safer for the street safety system

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g40YatgE_CE]HANS vs No HANS live crash - YouTube[/ame]

 

Hans versus no Hans isn't very relevant for street driving because wearing a HANS on the street is likely to cause accidents from poor visibility from not being able to turn neck to check for other traffic.

To a much lesser degree, harnesses make checking your sideview mirrors and side blind spot for lane changes and parkinglot maneuvers more difficult. I drove the rallycar to work all this week in urban interstate traffic because its my best snow and pothole vehicle and the roads were crap. When in lanechange doubt, floor it and then change lane when you know no other moron would dare driving that fast. I lived.

 

I wanna be there when you splain that move to the Officer I know what you mean but ...

Pot hole hell here too. I lost two rims & tires instantly last week and almost the car as well due to a refusal by police for emergency responsee even though they were 25 yards away from!

 

I think you'll be fine. The GT4 is actually a pretty strong car! Still runnin!
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Interesting discussion, one I always tune into, as my GT40 replica (don't go there...) has a padded cage and 6 point harnesses. I have had this debate in my head 1000 times, and for that particular car, there is no perfect solution. I have often wondered how plastic over metal is so much better for your melon than twin density foam.

Anyway, I see absolutely nothing wrong with properly installed 5 or 6 point harnesses in an otherwise unmodified street car. Nothing. First off, it does NOT prevent you from ducking your head. Second, how can being better restrained be worse?

I would remind people when they discuss the seatbelt/airbag system that airbags are designed to work with an UNRESTRAINED passenger, as mandated by the feds. I have read several articles discussing the fact that cars would be much safer if the manufacturers could actually design bags assuming the passenger is belted. So there goes the whole airbag/seatbelt harmony argument.

I think you can argue against a cage without a helmet. You can argue that a full race kit with cage and suit and belt and HANS and helmet is best. But it makes no sense to say a better restraining belt is more dangerous in any circumstances than a poorer restraining belt. Less comfortable? To some. Less reach to the AC and radio? For sure. Difficult to get belted in? Check. More dangerous? Not a chance.

 

+1^

The GT4 pic only shows the roof can support itself upside down. Appears to be just a gentle slow-speed soft rollover since no other visible panels are damaged and seems to be on a sandy surface. Bouncing down an asphalt road or landing inverted on frozen ground or boulders is a much different story.

 

http://youtu.be/g40YatgE_CE

http://youtu.be/SDuRVC1HJfs

Cage: must wear helmet.

5-6 point harness: must wear a HANS/helmet.

Problem with 5-6 point harness in a street car is that most will not wear a helmet, let alone a HANS. This is much more dangerous than a lap/shoulder belt with no HANS.

 

Wow. Pretty convincing. Have 6 points in my GT3 but don't use them on the street. 3 points still work fine.

Will be ordering a HANS before using the 6 points next track day for sure.

 

Yes please do. About 20 years ago the HANS was proven in pro racing but unavailable to us low hanging fruit. Other filled the void like the ISSAC device. I wore these early devices and people thought I was an idiot chicken just like the time when seatbelts were an option for roadcars. What idiot would spend the extra money? Now you look like an idiot or a rookie if you aren't wearing some kind of head and neck restraint. Even my 10 year old Corvette is doing 160mph racing at Autoclub speedway. Modern cars are only faster and humans aren't any tougher.

 

Interesting points of view. Certainly nothing wrong with a 5 or 6 point in an otherwise unmodified street car, but who is going to wear a HANS/Helmet when they drive around their street car? It just isn't going to happen. If you also have a 3 point and use it when on the street, then that would be fine. But using a 5-6 point without a HANS is in fact more dangerous than using a 3 point. The 5 or 6 point does not allow the body to pivot so almost all of the force is at the neck. See the video. The other thing to note is to never use a 5 or 6 point in a convertible without a proper roll cage. The harness is designed to keep you from submarining down in the seat. If you have a rollover in a vert without a cage, wearing a 5 or 6 point with a HANS, you will likely have a serious or fatal injury.

Roll cage means helmet.
5 or 6 point harness means HANS/Helmet
5 or 6 point harness in an open top car means HANS/Helmet plus a roll cage

 

On this point here, I am going to argue that there is nothing but speculation to back this up, there is simply no data - it doesn't exist. And that is because we do not have a significant number of vehicles or incidents in this configuration to generate data, nor is there any testing at all to support or refute it. The data simply isn't there.

So we are making assumptions. And those are:
1. An unrestrained head with NO helmet is the same as an unrestrained head in a helmet.
2. A three point harness does not restrain the body as tightly as a 6 point harness, and this is by design and therefore better.

SO:
1. A 10 pound head is not the same as a 14 pound combo head and helmet. In fact it is 40% lighter, and F=ma, so the forces on the neck are 40% less.

Helmets and harnesses were used for 40 years before the HANS device, and there is plenty of evidence that both worked well; not as well as with a HANS, but that's not the point being argued. It's not as if every crash resulted in catastrophic neck injuries, and that is WITH an unrestrained 14 pound mellon. If anything, there is testing showing that the neck can survive huge loads with an unhelmeted head in a tight restraint, like 22 Gs in a rocket sled.

2. If you look at trauma data, the difference between unrestrained vs. restrained passenger in a accident is ridiculous. If you have no belt on, you are 25 times more likely to die in a crash. There is NO data that says being more tightly restrained is bad. In fact, everything points to the idea that you want to be held in place as best as possible. Typically injury occurs when you HIT something in the car (hence the good argument against cages without helmets). You are told to wear your belts as snug as you can take them, and most modern cars have pre-tensioners to snug them down more when it senses an impending impact.

The standard three point belt is in place because it is the most that the average person will possibly accept as a safety measure. No manufacturer will EVER make a car with a harness because it would not sell to the public, and they will never pay to have it tested for the sliver of people who would want it. Hell, there are still people that don't buckle up - we had 2 teenagers killed here 2 months ago unrestrained in accidents that they should have walked from. There are no "approved" harnesses for no other reason than it is IMPOSSIBLE to get them through the DOT - they would have to be individually tested in each car configuration, and that's not going to happen. So no matter what Schroth thinks, they will NEVER be recommended; but that doesn't really mean anything. Ferrari sells cars with harnesses from the factory in Europe, but not here. I guess they recommend helmets and HANS at all times?

So I would again ask for data that says you shouldn't wear a harness without a HANS, because I don't think it exists. Oh and anecdotal examples are meaningless. I saw a guy cut in half when the guard rail came through the car. I guess we shouldn't allow those things to be used...? Oh course not. It's the same logic that people use when they claim they don't want to be trapped in a burning car, which we all know is extremely rare compared to good old fashioned impacts and blunt trauma.
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Danger is relative. There are stage rallies worldwide any given weekend which both drivers and codrivers drive caged cars harnessed and unhelmeted between the racing special stages. I have transited over a ten thousand miles like this myself and I'm a drop in the ocean of total miles. Most everyone loosen the shoudler harnesses for transits and then cinch them tight again at the state of the next racing segment. Never heard of one injury transiting and if it were a safety issue, sancitioning bodies would require we wear helmets at all times in rallycar.

Mixed feeling about the HANS. I survived a massive highspeed airboune crash into large oak that did not budge that the harnesses broke most my ribs and sternum. Was with helmet pre-HANS era and no neck strain what-so-ever. Have had to get out of inverted rolled car w/ HANS and been temporaily trapped by it and other rally people have complained the same. I do feel the extra neck support and wear mine doing track days and time trails even when not required.

Best advise is ...Don't crash streetcars in the first place.

 

Math is just a bit off - a 10 lb. object is right about 28.6% lighter than a 140 lb. object:
140 lb. X 0.286 = 40.04 lb.

But your point is still valid!

 

You are right that my math is off, but I think you have a typo also

 

Great advice!

 

People used to say that in the 1960's about seat belts.

 

What many don't understand is that the 3 point is safer in that senario not because it is the 3 point but because safety is a system. When you home build a racecar you put safety gear in mandated by your sanctioning body with no testing but years of that's the way it is done. With the Federal OEM safety systems they are engineered, tested, real world data examined and modified as needed. That is a true safety system. It is safest for the application. When we delete OEM safety systems we are basically guessing with poor to no engineering.

Here we are talking about the generic rollcage. No such thing exists. Every cage has compromises and no cage is perfect. Any care to post up a rollcage picture and we could find flaws in it.

 

Typo? What am I not seeing?

edit -- Oh! Right - got the decimal in the wrong place! Duh...

 

Like I said, I wear the HANS even when not required on the track.

In rally (more rollovers and no corner workers or outside help at 95+% of special stages), would suck to survive the crash only to burn alive stuck in car by HANS.

A major drifting sanctioning body is now considering requiring HANS, perhaps pressured by their insurer. They do have big crashes into walls but the HANS tethers limits the neck motion so much that the drivers can't turn their heads to see where they are going sideways.

BTW, drove w/ harnesses and rollcage without a helmet to work today. I lived.

 

I can agree with that. Fire is terror. I would not want to go that way. OTOH, Up until you hit the immoveable object and your head snaps off your neck its scary then bang "lights out Lucille." There is no question I would be a better driver in my tennis shoes, jeans and a tee shirt especially on 100*F days. We went through all the HANS entrapment issues over a decade ago. Part of the reason for the SFI 38.1 spec is for single release to prevent or minimize entrapment. It also does not take much to setup window nets to release up and release down. Center nets are quick release. Containment seats are 21st century. HANS does have quick release anchor options too and you always have the option to have a belt cutter in reach. My racecar does. Rolling over on fire and trapped is not a likely as a simple 35mph crash delta which is all you need to snap your head off. 35mph delta is a 20G crash. 45mph delta is a 50g crash. Pro cars with black boxes show data of nicely survivable 100G crashes. That's what we want.

 

Well, that would be ideal, but unfortunately that is not the case!
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/OccCProt.html
Airbags must be designed to work with an unrestrained passenger. They are tested with a belted dummy too, but they have to work with an unbelted occupant, and the design must be different (quicker deployment for one) to meet this. So by definition, they are not designed as a true system like a race car safety system.

Also, I would say again that NO CAR would EVER sell in the US in any numbers with a belt system any more complicated than a simple three point. So it's not that the three point is the best, it's as far as the car company can possibly push it. And then they must design the a-pillar and dash and crumple zones around that three point. But just because the A-pillar is better designed to allow your head to hit it doesn't mean you wouldn't be better off staying tighter restrained, and NOT hitting it at all.

I just see no reason to not be held snug. No chance of submarining, less chance of banging your head on something, better distribution of load across your entire torso vs. the clavicle fracture - or laryngeal injury - from the single belt...

 

I am unsure what conditions would exist to result in someone being "stuck by (a) HANS". I know when we switched to HALO seats I had to adopt my technique for exit, as the back of the HANS would catch the seat occasionally, but unsure how the HANS would trap you.

On the tethers, HANS offers different tether lengths now with the same/close level of protection, plus the new tethers slide. I have longer ones and have no problem doing scanning. If anything, the HALO seat is more intrusive. Have you tried longer/sliding tethers?

One general comment, we have to pass an "exit test", I'll admit to practicing getting out of the car - including out the window. Driver change practice also helps build confidence that you can get out. Of course, if the tub/cage itself is rearranged in a big hit, it might make it trickier....